Fire Muller...now!

[gobirds85]

Does anyone have a strong feeling with how Muller is viewed by Illinois or nearby state AAU Coaches? Based on what I understand he is not looked at favorably and that is not good for ISU. Unless he is bringing 5 star recruits in from other states he should be spending 90% of his time around the area. Its inexcusable to overlook some of the talent that other rinky drink programs get that ultimately snake bite and embarrass ISU basketball.

Maybe he has burnt some local bridges and due to that he has been forced to expand his recruitment territory. I have no firsthand knowledge but there might be something to this. It's abundantly clear that we are not doing well recruiting in our own backyard. Currently, four Redbirds are from the state of Illinois.

 

[Redbirdwarrior]

Illinois high school basketball is ...weird. Chicago is dominated by the BIG players. It is not uncommon to see Duke, North Carolina, Kansas, Illinois, Michigan, MSU, Iowa, Cuse, Florida, Notre Dame and other head coaches lined up at the Illinois State Tournament or even for the city championship events. I have a picture a few years ago of Coach K, Roy Williams, Bill Self and a few other huge names all sitting courtside in my old high school gym watching Jabari Parker and others play in what was a feeding frenzy of top players for a city title. I want to say it was 2012 or so.

You MIGHT get lucky and have a guy who is 4 star talent be misevaluated because he plays in Peoria or Normal or Rockford, but more times than not, your top players in the state are playing north of 80 and east of 355. And because the top players are thinking about the NBA money, they are not exactly asking to be taken off the court to give other players on the team a chance. Chicago Simeon, Whitney Young, LaSalle, MAYBE Proviso East will produce more than 1 D1 kid on the same roster, but more often than not, it is get the ball to the guy who will be making $10,000,000 in 2 years and get out of the way.

The rest of the state has a lot of competition from other colleges and honestly not a whole lot of talent. Many of the schools outside of Chicagoland are playing at a level where they can barely field a team, much less produce D1 talent.

Now 2019 and 2020 makes it real interesting because there is no game tape on these kids. These coaches are going purely off of hearsay, projection from 2 years ago and workouts. If Muller is going to find some diamonds in the rough in Illinois, this is the year. Big coaches are WAY more likely to completely drop the ball on recruiting this year.

 

[TBS_20]

ISU gas become a laughing stock. If ISU can't afford 1.5 million even in a pandemic they might as well just close on up. Other small budget type universities have found ways to get new coaches.

 

[MadBird]

Illinois high school basketball is ...weird. Chicago is dominated by the BIG players. It is not uncommon to see Duke, North Carolina, Kansas, Illinois, Michigan, MSU, Iowa, Cuse, Florida, Notre Dame and other head coaches lined up at the Illinois State Tournament or even for the city championship events. I have a picture a few years ago of Coach K, Roy Williams, Bill Self and a few other huge names all sitting courtside in my old high school gym watching Jabari Parker and others play in what was a feeding frenzy of top players for a city title. I want to say it was 2012 or so.

You MIGHT get lucky and have a guy who is 4 star talent be misevaluated because he plays in Peoria or Normal or Rockford, but more times than not, your top players in the state are playing north of 80 and east of 355. And because the top players are thinking about the NBA money, they are not exactly asking to be taken off the court to give other players on the team a chance. Chicago Simeon, Whitney Young, LaSalle, MAYBE Proviso East will produce more than 1 D1 kid on the same roster, but more often than not, it is get the ball to the guy who will be making $10,000,000 in 2 years and get out of the way.

The rest of the state has a lot of competition from other colleges and honestly not a whole lot of talent. Many of the schools outside of Chicagoland are playing at a level where they can barely field a team, much less produce D1 talent.

Now 2019 and 2020 makes it real interesting because there is no game tape on these kids. These coaches are going purely off of hearsay, projection from 2 years ago and workouts. If Muller is going to find some diamonds in the rough in Illinois, this is the year. Big coaches are WAY more likely to completely drop the ball on recruiting this year.

Some good stuff here warrior, altho let me add a couple thoughts to disagree a little, or put a little different spin on yours.

Thought 1 - No doubt most of the top players are "up north", but you know, 4 of the last six Mr. Basketballs are from "outstate" - EJ LIddell from Belleville W. twice, Mark Smith from Edwardsville, and Chasson Randle from Rock Island (Ryan Boatright from E. Aurora tied with Randle, but I'd include him in the "Chicago area" even tho west of 355). Ethan Happ from Milan had quite a run at Wisconsin a couple years ago, Demonte Williams from Peoria is at UIUC. There's a few outstate guys who show up in the "big leagues". Coach Dan swung and missed recently on in-staters Chastain, Bruninga, Romine, largely due to injuries or other issues. Tinsley just didn't measure up.

Thought 2 - We don't need to get 4-5 Illinois kids a year. Just one or two. You're only recruiting 3-4 kids a year most years (well, okay, Coach Dan seems to be recruiting 6-7 but that's another story). So you know, you come up with a decent serviceable kid or two from the state, and a solid kid or two from Iowa or Indiana or Wisconsin or Missouri, and then if you bring in a couple of "athletic guys with potential" from Florida, or Georgia, or North Carolina or California, fine. But build that core with some hard-nosed gamers who play the game right and you've got something to work with.

Doesn't seem like it should be that tough for THE Illinois State U to get one decent guy a year, if someone tried hard enough.

 

[bombay]

Odd that people who don't have 2 nickels to rub together are so insistant that ISU flush a few million.

 

[Birdfriend72]

Odd that people who don't have 2 nickels to rub together are so insistant that ISU flush a few million.

Tell that to the people whining about a football practice facility for a D3 football team.

 

[ISU86]

Some good stuff here warrior, altho let me add a couple thoughts to disagree a little, or put a little different spin on yours.

Thought 1 - No doubt most of the top players are "up north", but you know, 4 of the last six Mr. Basketballs are from "outstate" - EJ LIddell from Belleville W. twice, Mark Smith from Edwardsville, and Chasson Randle from Rock Island (Ryan Boatright from E. Aurora tied with Randle, but I'd include him in the "Chicago area" even tho west of 355). Ethan Happ from Milan had quite a run at Wisconsin a couple years ago, Demonte Williams from Peoria is at UIUC. There's a few outstate guys who show up in the "big leagues". Coach Dan swung and missed recently on in-staters Chastain, Bruninga, Romine, largely due to injuries or other issues. Tinsley just didn't measure up.

Thought 2 - We don't need to get 4-5 Illinois kids a year. Just one or two. You're only recruiting 3-4 kids a year most years (well, okay, Coach Dan seems to be recruiting 6-7 but that's another story). So you know, you come up with a decent serviceable kid or two from the state, and a solid kid or two from Iowa or Indiana or Wisconsin or Missouri, and then if you bring in a couple of "athletic guys with potential" from Florida, or Georgia, or North Carolina or California, fine. But build that core with some hard-nosed gamers who play the game right and you've got something to work with.

Doesn't seem like it should be that tough for THE Illinois State U to get one decent guy a year, if someone tried hard enough.

I will add on that, other than maybe Decatur, ISU gets little to no run south of Bloomington-Normal. No newspaper, radio or television coverage. Hard to even get a kid from say Springfield excited, let alone the Metro East side of St. Louis (Alton, Belleville, Cahokia, Collinsville, East St. Louis, Edwardsville, Granite City, etc.). What little run there was during the Stallings days has since long evaporated. Even Missouri State has a radio affiliate in St. Louis. Not that by itself it moves the needle a lot but it does make some difference.

 

[ISU86]

Odd that people who don't have 2 nickels to rub together are so insistant that ISU flush a few million.

Always easier to spend someone else's coins.

 

[ricohill]

Odd that people who don't have 2 nickels to rub together are so insistant that ISU flush a few million.

Such a dumb argument. In 2018, the athletic department got 10.56 million from student fees and additional 8.9 million from the University.

They only bring in an incredibly small sum of money from donors (2.6 million).

The University gives the athletic department 19.46 million a year.

If they can’t find $1.5 million then just join some crappy league like the OVC and stop wasting everyone’s time.

 

[TBS_20]

Raise tuition by $80 for 1 year and you have your $1.5-m.

 

[Trey_Guidry4three]

Raise tuition by $80 for 1 year and you have your $1.5-m.

Yes, make all the kids pay for ISU stupidity. Are you the same person when your local authority screws up a budget over and over again you just want to tax the innocent?

 

[TBS_20]

Yes, make all the kids pay for ISU stupidity. Are you the same person when your local authority screws up a budget over and over again you just want to tax the innocent?

Give 20,000 parking tickets at $80 a piece. I dont give a **** how they get the money at this point. rob a bank for all i care.

 

[Birdfriend72]

Such a dumb argument. In 2018, the athletic department got 10.56 million from student fees and additional 8.9 million from the University.

They only bring in an incredibly small sum of money from donors (2.6 million).

The University gives the athletic department 19.46 million a year.

If they can’t find $1.5 million then just join some crappy league like the OVC and stop wasting everyone’s time.

That money probably went to Larry’s mansion (Hancock Stadium).

 

[Trey_Guidry4three]

Give 20,000 parking tickets at $80 a piece. I dont give a **** how they get the money at this point. rob a bank for all i care.

Interesting. Willing to go to those lengths to get rid of Muller? Dang!

 

[Birdfriend72]

Yes, make all the kids pay for ISU stupidity. Are you the same person when your local authority screws up a budget over and over again you just want to tax the innoce

Interesting. Willing to go to those lengths to get rid of Muller? Dang!

What’s the difference between raising $1.2 million to get rid of a lousy deal or $1.2 mil to renovate the Redbird Room? I’m not saying this has happened. If you hire the right person, give them a year to year contract and make the tournament...you will probably get your money back. It sounds like you and few others are just attached to Dan. It’s business to me. I will never again complain when a coach leaves for greener pastures! If we can’t afford him- so be it!

 

[cpacmel]

If you hire the right person, give them a year to year contract and make the tournament...you will probably get your money back.

You will never get a coach that will sign on for a year to year contract. It's one of the reasons coaches rarely are on lame duck contract years with 1 year left on their deals.

You will also never get any recruits that would go to to school that has a coach signed to a year to year contract. It's one of the first questions that recruits ask in the recruiting process: "How long is your current contract?", "do you intend to be my head coach for my entire 4/5 years at the school?"

 

[Redbird82]

Agree, you will never get year to year and you shouldn’t, a coach should have some security in trying to build and maintain a program. The key is a reasonable buyout clause. Have it constructed so you pay far less than the salary like 500,000 for Muller for the example instead of 1.2. Or even if you paid the whole 1.2 have it spread over 10 or 20 years. You can’t hamstring yourself like we did with Dan or Barb Smith.

 

[Birdfriend72]

You will never get a coach that will sign on for a year to year contract. It's one of the reasons coaches rarely are on lame duck contract years with 1 year left on their deals.

You will also never get any recruits that would go to to school that has a coach signed to a year to year contract. It's one of the first questions that recruits ask in the recruiting process: "How long is your current contract?", "do you intend to be my head coach for my entire 4/5 years at the school?"

That's fine...but he isn't getting a 7 year deal either.

 

[ricohill]

Never give anything more that 4. These guys aren’t NASA scientists. They can all be replaced. The perfect contract was Lansing at Indiana State. You give him a 4 year rolling contract. Every year the AD has the option to keep it at a 4 year contract or once you see his performance falling (which was after about year 4 you could tell he was as bad as Muller) you don’t extend and the clock starts ticking.

I will never understand giving Muller the huge raise and extension after 2017. He had no options to go anywhere and hadn’t accomplished anything worthy of that contract. Even if he left, who cares? You can find almost anyone to do what he’s done in 9 years.

However, to me this is about the new AD. If he doesn’t fire Muller, it’s obvious he’s Larry 2.0. Another soft puppet for the University.

 

[jwa123]

I’m not much of a Muller fan. I have not been since that game early on where the crowd was cheering the team on very late in the game to get to 75 points for wings and Dan got up and started yelling at the crowd to shut up. I thought who in the hell does he think he is? These are the people who help pay the freight around here and you have the audacity to tell them to shut up. It was just total arrogance.

Nonetheless, I was willing to wait and see what he could do as a head coach. There were some good years in there. MVC coach of the year along with some talented young recruits coming in. I thought let’s give him some space and see what he can do.

Well we have reached the juncture where we can see what he can do and it ain’t a pretty sight. ISU needs another head coach and Dan needs to move on to the next phase of his life. However, with all of this said there sure is a lot of irrational thinking be posted here.