Success of the Big 6 - explain please

[Total Red]

I wish the FCS had more fanbases as passionate as Montana, Montana State, NDSU, and SDSU. It would really be something.

I'm borrowing this quote from the playoff thread to jump start this one. Hmmm, yes, FCS football is really big in North Dakota, South Dakota and Montana. North Dakota, North Dakota St., South Dakota, South Dakota St., Montana and Montana St., all made the FCS playoffs. The top 3 seeds are 1) South Dakota St. 2) Montana and 3) South Dakota. North Dakota St. has won the FCS National Championship 9 times.

That's a lot of domination by the rural Northwest. What's going on up there? Do they put something in the water? I don't think that's it. The easy explanation is that they have great fanbases and facilities up there. But why do they have those advantages? I have some ideas but I'm going to lead from behind on this one. I'd like to hear some others explain this phenomenon.

I will throw these facts into the mix. All six of those schools have enrollments that are smaller than Illinois State University and all six of the schools are located in cities will less population than Normal-Bloomington. Despite this they still dominate.

So who thinks they can explain this? ChiRedbirdfan? Anyone? Reggie1857? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?

 

[ChiRedbirdfan]

I'm borrowing this quote from the playoff thread to jump start this one. Hmmm, yes, FCS football is really big in North Dakota, South Dakota and Montana. North Dakota, North Dakota St., South Dakota, South Dakota St., Montana and Montana St., all made the FCS playoffs. The top 3 seeds are 1) South Dakota St. 2) Montana and 3) South Dakota. North Dakota St. has won the FCS National Championship 9 times.

That's a lot of domination by the rural Northwest. What's going on up there? Do they put something in the water? I don't think that's it. The easy explanation is that they have great fanbases and facilities up there. But why do they have those advantages? I have some ideas but I'm going to lead from behind on this one. I'd like to hear some others explain this phenomenon.

I will throw these facts into the mix. All six of those schools have enrollments that are smaller than Illinois State University and all six of the schools are located in cities will less population than Normal-Bloomington. Despite this they still dominate.

So who thinks they can explain this? ChiRedbirdfan? Anyone? Reggie1857? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?

probably many considerations if what you state is real including that region is geographically/demographically challenged and the best they can compete at is fcs level football. successful division 1 college football programs from a state's big public universities elsewhere (not geographically/demographically challenged) play fbs football because of the big difference in fbs revenue/publicity vs what is available from fcs. not many eyeballs in that area of the world to drive meaningful media/financial opportunities unlike the rest of the world. would those above referenced programs be successful today had the many previousy fcs powerhouses not left for the fbs revenue/notoriety? overall fcs level of play has been diminishing some over time (via successful fcs teams moving up to fbs) so that stated regional accomplishment is noteworthy but not overall remarkable, imo. beyond that take uber-successful ndsu out of the conversation and i do not know if that regional argument holds much validity over an extended period of time?

 

[fourthandshort]

They own their states, not a lot of competition for other colleges, though smaller populations to draw from. Not to mention, they dont compete with nearly as many other forms of entertainment.. sports or otherwise .. but no professional teams to suck up all the attention on news or in newspapers.

 

[ChiRedbirdfan]

They own their states, not a lot of competition for other colleges, though smaller populations to draw from. Not to mention, they dont compete with nearly as many other forms of entertainment.. sports or otherwise .. but no professional teams to suck up all the attention on news or in newspapers.

yes sir! except i do not put much stock into the lack of pro-teams impact. they are the big state school/uni's and have statewide fan following/loyalty that extends beyond their own students and alums.

 

[fourthandshort]

yes sir! except i do not put much stock into the lack of pro-teams impact. they are the big state school/uni's and have statewide fan following/loyalty that extends beyond their own students and alums.

Not even in terms of sports headlines in papers and on news .. TV, radio, online ?. Professional teams tend to dominate headlines.

 

[ChiRedbirdfan]

Not even in terms of sports headlines in papers and on news .. TV, radio, online ?. Professional teams tend to dominate headlines.

In someone ways pro and college football are compliments and in other ways they are indeed substitutes. I just don’t believe college and pro completely work against each other was my side comment. But certainly they have areas of competition. It is very situational from the individual market on down to the individual consumer.

 

[fourthandshort]

In someone ways pro and college football are compliments and in other ways they are indeed substitutes. I just don’t believe college and pro completely work against each other was my side comment. But certainly they have areas of competition. It is very situational from the individual market on down to the individual consumer.

Good point on the complimentary aspect and even more generally. But just comparing ISU to any of those plains states teams ... in Illinois and other States fully represented in professional sports, even when the Bears, Bulls, Cubs/Sox, and Hawks are bad, they're the teams getting most of the headline news. But in Montana, the only statewide sports teams are Montana and Montana St .. same in North Dakota and South Dakota. So when they are also good in their respective conferences, it's the only game in town. So there are far less historical head winds to drawing/keeping fans and statewide support .. they just need to be good.

So Illinois St competes for broader statewide support with U of I, Northwestern, all the directionals, plus the non-football privates, and then all the pro teams. So ISU is mainly just gong to get the alumni and local. Whereas Montana's, North/South Dakotas, etc .. they can actually get everyone. Not that it's a lot of people, but they are the only game in town .. so getting 15-20k for a football game isn't nearly as hard for these FCS programs.

Then coming back to the statewide newspapers and TV/radio/online ... there is only 1 front page and 1 top story, in theory. ISU is way down the line .. completely understandably.

 

[BJJ guy]

I've been to Montana State for a football game and it's more like going to a game at Wisconsin or Iowa, where the whole town is in football mode. Banners and flags everywhere, bars and restaurants are filled with people in Bobcat gear (including the staff). Packed stadium. Local news coverage and the TV coverage of the game is great. At ISU, if you get more than a block from the stadium, you'd have no idea anything was going on. Most alumni and students could care about football, and the TV coverage of the game is barely better than some high school games. It's a totally different ball game. I think the "only show in town" thing explains why a team like Iowa has packed stadiums no matter what, while Northwestern or Illinois have mostly empty stadiums halfway through the year unless they are having winning seasons.

 

[fourthandshort]

I've been to Montana State for a football game and it's more like going to a game at Wisconsin or Iowa, where the whole town is in football mode. Banners and flags everywhere, bars and restaurants are filled with people in Bobcat gear (including the staff). Packed stadium. Local news coverage and the TV coverage of the game is great. At ISU, if you get more than a block from the stadium, you'd have no idea anything was going on. Most alumni and students could care about football, and the TV coverage of the game is barely better than some high school games. It's a totally different ball game. I think the "only show in town" thing explains why a team like Iowa has packed stadiums no matter what, while Northwestern or Illinois have mostly empty stadiums halfway through the year unless they are having winning seasons.

This is a good point as well ... and this is where ISU could do a lot better IMO - many others here will have better informed opinions than me on this front.

But ... Normal, IL is about 55k. Bloomington is about 80k. I believe the BloNo retro area maxes around 170k .. so another 35k apparently outside but near BloNo. Been a while since my kids were there and we went to most games. But it never quite felt like ISU football owned Normal, IL on game days .. I could be wrong there, other than homecoming and family day, and maybe a big home game in a good year. But when you have to qualify it that much, you don't really own anything.

But I still wonder how much that does/could extend to greater BloNo area, for example in a great year .. or if we went FBS. As it stands today, we don't draw very well unless it is a great year or a big event game.

 

[Dmills]

But I still wonder how much that does/could extend to greater BloNo area, for example in a great year .. or if we went FBS. As it stands today, we don't draw very well unless it is a great year or a big event game.

I grew up 45 minutes west of Dekalb. If you were going to go to a college football game, NIU was the place to go. I don't really have strong feelings for or against FBS football, but I don't think I would've seen as much excitement about NIU football if they were FCS. I think for those who live 45 minutes away from BloNo, even if it is to the north or west, they probably are more likely to go to an Illinois game than an ISU game as a casual fan. If ISU were FBS, I don't think this would be the case as much.

 

[RedbirdSoxFan]

I've been to Montana State for a football game and it's more like going to a game at Wisconsin or Iowa, where the whole town is in football mode. Banners and flags everywhere, bars and restaurants are filled with people in Bobcat gear (including the staff). Packed stadium. Local news coverage and the TV coverage of the game is great. At ISU, if you get more than a block from the stadium, you'd have no idea anything was going on. Most alumni and students could care about football, and the TV coverage of the game is barely better than some high school games. It's a totally different ball game. I think the "only show in town" thing explains why a team like Iowa has packed stadiums no matter what, while Northwestern or Illinois have mostly empty stadiums halfway through the year unless they are having winning seasons.

I was vacationing at Big Sky Resort a couple months ago, so drove up to check out Bozeman. It was on Friday prior to the Montana State Saturday football game against Portland State. Downtown was blocked off do to having a pre-game rally for the football team. It was crazy. Can’t imagine what it was like there this past Friday night with North Dakota State the opponent after being in Frisco for the Birds/ Bison championship game and seeing the following the Bison get. Imagine having downtown (oops, uptown) Normal streets blocked off to vehicles to have a rally on Friday nights before Redbird home football games.
As for TV coverage; I was watching the Auburn/Georgia game on CBS, during the game they cut out and switched over to the Montana State/ Portland State game.

 

[StLRedbird]

The main reason reason the big 6 are successful in football is because it's the most important sport at five of them. Hockey is in the drivers seat @ UND. Football commands the lions share of the resources at these schools. Add to that a rich history of success for most of them in D2 and you have a good base to build on.

Contrast that w football @ ISU. For most of my life, nearly all of the Redbird Nation (me included) thought that it was a sinkhole, taking needed resources from the far more deserving basketball team.

 

[fourthandshort]

The main reason reason the big 6 are successful in football is because it's the most important sport at five of them. Hockey is in the drivers seat @ UND. Football commands the lions share of the resources at these schools. Add to that a rich history of success for most of them in D2 and you have a good base to build on.

Contrast that w football @ ISU. For most of my life, nearly all of the Redbird Nation (me included) thought that it was a sinkhole, taking needed resources from the far more deserving basketball team.

whoa .. shots fired !!!

 

[fourthandshort]

I grew up 45 minutes west of Dekalb. If you were going to go to a college football game, NIU was the place to go. I don't really have strong feelings for or against FBS football, but I don't think I would've seen as much excitement about NIU football if they were FCS. I think for those who live 45 minutes away from BloNo, even if it is to the north or west, they probably are more likely to go to an Illinois game than an ISU game as a casual fan. If ISU were FBS, I don't think this would be the case as much.

I'm guessing you must hate mid week games just for TV ... Or is it a net positive in your opinion ?

 

[fourthandshort]

I was vacationing at Big Sky Resort a couple months ago, so drove up to check out Bozeman. It was on Friday prior to the Montana State Saturday football game against Portland State. Downtown was blocked off do to having a pre-game rally for the football team. It was crazy. Can’t imagine what it was like there this past Friday night with North Dakota State the opponent after being in Frisco for the Birds/ Bison championship game and seeing the following the Bison get. Imagine having downtown (oops, uptown) Normal streets blocked off to vehicles to have a rally on Friday nights before Redbird home football games.
As for TV coverage; I was watching the Auburn/Georgia game on CBS, during the game they cut out and switched over to the Montana State/ Portland State game.

And how about the Bison faithful .. they hosted their playin game against The Drake. But won't get to play at "home" again until Frisco !!!

That'll put their fan base to the test. They comment about the lost enthusiasm and attendance a lot on AGS. Well .. ironically, if they can win on road to Natty. They have short trip to USD next, then probably a trip to Montana in final 4, before a trip to Frisco against likely SDSU team again. But I don't think anyone is betting a lot on them surviving this year. But they are on a roll since losing at SDSU by 17 on Nov 4th.

But they also lost to USD at home on 9.30 and then 2 weeks later got smoked at UND by 25. I'm going to bet it has been a very long time dating well back into their D-II years since NDSU lost to all 3 Dakotas in same year. But again, they seem to be ramping up some .. though had to squeak by a Mont St team on road.

But you have to like NDSU chances a 2nd time against USD, even on road.

Date		Opponent		Result	PF	PA
Sat 12-09 02:30.PM.ET	at	South Dakota	4 (10-2)	78 %	30	20
Sat 12-02	at	Montana St playoff	5 (8-4)	W OT	35	34
Sat 11-25		Drake playoff	102 (8-4)	W	66	3
Sat 11-18	at	Northern Iowa	10 (6-5)	W	48	27
Sat 11-11		S Illinois	8 (8-5)	W	34	10
Sat 11-04	at	S Dakota St	1 (12-0)	L	16	33
Sat 10-28		Murray St	70 (2-9)	W	38	6
Sat 10-21		W Illinois	114 (0-11)	W	52	7
Sat 10-14	at	North Dakota	15 (7-5)	L	24	49
Sat 10-07	at	Missouri St	24 (4-7)	W	38	10
Sat 09-30		South Dakota	4 (10-2)	L	19	24
Sat 09-16		Cent Arkansas	20 (7-4)	W	49	31
Sat 09-09		Maine	78 (2-9)	W	44	7
Sat 09-02	vs	E Washington Minneapolis, MN	36 (4-7)	W	35	10

 

[ChiRedbirdfan]

And how about the Bison faithful .. they hosted their playin game against The Drake. But won't get to play at "home" again until Frisco !!!

That'll put their fan base to the test. They comment about the lost enthusiasm and attendance a lot on AGS. Well .. ironically, if they can win on road to Natty. They have short trip to USD next, then probably a trip to Montana in final 4, before a trip to Frisco against likely SDSU team again. But I don't think anyone is betting a lot on them surviving this year. But they are on a roll since losing at SDSU by 17 on Nov 4th.

But they also lost to USD at home on 9.30 and then 2 weeks later got smoked at UND by 25. I'm going to bet it has been a very long time dating well back into their D-II years since NDSU lost to all 3 Dakotas in same year. But again, they seem to be ramping up some .. though had to squeak by a Mont St team on road.

But you have to like NDSU chances a 2nd time against USD, even on road.

Date		Opponent		Result	PF	PA
Sat 12-09 02:30.PM.ET	at	South Dakota	4 (10-2)	78 %	30	20
Sat 12-02	at	Montana St playoff	5 (8-4)	W OT	35	34
Sat 11-25		Drake playoff	102 (8-4)	W	66	3
Sat 11-18	at	Northern Iowa	10 (6-5)	W	48	27
Sat 11-11		S Illinois	8 (8-5)	W	34	10
Sat 11-04	at	S Dakota St	1 (12-0)	L	16	33
Sat 10-28		Murray St	70 (2-9)	W	38	6
Sat 10-21		W Illinois	114 (0-11)	W	52	7
Sat 10-14	at	North Dakota	15 (7-5)	L	24	49
Sat 10-07	at	Missouri St	24 (4-7)	W	38	10
Sat 09-30		South Dakota	4 (10-2)	L	19	24
Sat 09-16		Cent Arkansas	20 (7-4)	W	49	31
Sat 09-09		Maine	78 (2-9)	W	44	7
Sat 09-02	vs	E Washington Minneapolis, MN	36 (4-7)	W	35	10

I’ll bet if not attending bison nation will be watching via streaming/cable/whatever in full force The value of that is understated, imo. Also look at locations fcs playoffs are often hosted (rural 3rd tier cities at best), the dismal time of the year, with only a weeks notice. Attending games is a tough tough sell when it can be watched online. Further, for those upper mountain teams, they are also so remote with only travel option likely driving and they probably have a good chance of adverse weather. Hats off to those that do attend under those conditions as that loyalty rivals any p5 fandom, imo

 

[Dmills]

I'm guessing you must hate mid week games just for TV ... Or is it a net positive in your opinion ?

Surprisingly, I actually didn't go to any Huskie games. I've been to Huskie stadium 3 times - 2013 State Championship, 2018 State Championship, and 2019 ISU vs NIU game. I say that to say, I don't have a vested interest one way or another.

If you're just asking my opinion, I think it is a little silly. The TV exposure is great, but I don't think it is worth messing up the game day experience. I'm sure the MAC follows the $$$ which would show that it is worth it. There are enough gamblers and football crazies who love watching those games on TV to make it worth it, I suppose. NIU had 3 Tuesday games, including 2 home games. As an NIU fan, I probably wouldn't mind one weekday home game. Tuesdays just sound like an awful day to play, but that's what you get when you are entirely submissive to ESPN/CBS in your scheduling.

It doesn't look like it affected attendance as badly as I thought before looking at the numbers:
Saturday, October 21 2:30 pm kickoff: 9,458
Tuesday, November 7 6 pm kickoff: 6,282
Tuesday, November 14 6 pm kickoff: 6,417
I assume the weather was a fair amount nicer for an afternoon game on October 21st.

Now if the MVFC ever announced something similar, I would definitely roll my eyes.

 

[MadBird]

Surprisingly, I actually didn't go to any Huskie games. I've been to Huskie stadium 3 times - 2013 State Championship, 2018 State Championship, and 2019 ISU vs NIU game. I say that to say, I don't have a vested interest one way or another.

If you're just asking my opinion, I think it is a little silly. The TV exposure is great, but I don't think it is worth messing up the game day experience. I'm sure the MAC follows the $$$ which would show that it is worth it. There are enough gamblers and football crazies who love watching those games on TV to make it worth it, I suppose. NIU had 3 Tuesday games, including 2 home games. As an NIU fan, I probably wouldn't mind one weekday home game. Tuesdays just sound like an awful day to play, but that's what you get when you are entirely submissive to ESPN/CBS in your scheduling.

It doesn't look like it affected attendance as badly as I thought before looking at the numbers:
Saturday, October 21 2:30 pm kickoff: 9,458
Tuesday, November 7 6 pm kickoff: 6,282
Tuesday, November 14 6 pm kickoff: 6,417
I assume the weather was a fair amount nicer for an afternoon game on October 21st.

Now if the MVFC ever announced something similar, I would definitely roll my eyes.

Prolly "announced" attendance, not necessarily fannies in seats.

 

[fourthandshort]

I was vacationing at Big Sky Resort a couple months ago, so drove up to check out Bozeman. It was on Friday prior to the Montana State Saturday football game against Portland State. Downtown was blocked off do to having a pre-game rally for the football team. It was crazy. Can’t imagine what it was like there this past Friday night with North Dakota State the opponent after being in Frisco for the Birds/ Bison championship game and seeing the following the Bison get. Imagine having downtown (oops, uptown) Normal streets blocked off to vehicles to have a rally on Friday nights before Redbird home football games.
As for TV coverage; I was watching the Auburn/Georgia game on CBS, during the game they cut out and switched over to the Montana State/ Portland State game.

And how about the Bison faithful .. they hosted their playin game against The Drake. But won't get to play at "home" again until Frisco !!!

That'll put their fan base to the test. They comment about the lost enthusiasm and attendance a lot on AGS. Well .. ironically, if they can win on road to Natty. They have short trip to USD next, then probably a trip to Montana in final 4, before a trip to Frisco against likely SDSU team again. But I don't think anyone is betting a lot on them surviving this year. But they are on a roll since losing at SDSU by 17 on Nov 4th.

But they also lost to USD at home on 9.30 and then 2 weeks later got smoked at UND by 25. I'm going to bet it has been a very long time dating well back into their D-II years since NDSU lost to all 3 Dakotas in same year. But again, they seem to be ramping up some .. though had to squeak by a Mont St team on road.

You have to like NDSU chances a 2nd time against USD, even on road.

Date		Opponent		Result	PF	PA
Sat 12-09 02:30.PM.ET	at	South Dakota	4 (10-2)	78 %	30	20
Sat 12-02	at	Montana St playoff	5 (8-4)	W OT	35	34
Sat 11-25		Drake playoff	102 (8-4)	W	66	3
Sat 11-18	at	Northern Iowa	10 (6-5)	W	48	27
Sat 11-11		S Illinois	8 (8-5)	W	34	10
Sat 11-04	at	S Dakota St	1 (12-0)	L	16	33
Sat 10-28		Murray St	70 (2-9)	W	38	6
Sat 10-21		W Illinois	114 (0-11)	W	52	7
Sat 10-14	at	North Dakota	15 (7-5)	L	24	49
Sat 10-07	at	Missouri St	24 (4-7)	W	38	10
Sat 09-30		South Dakota	4 (10-2)	L	19	24
Sat 09-16		Cent Arkansas	20 (7-4)	W	49	31
Sat 09-09		Maine	78 (2-9)	W	44	7
Sat 09-02	vs	E Washington Minneapolis, MN	36 (4-7)	W	35	10

Surprisingly, I actually didn't go to any Huskie games. I've been to Huskie stadium 3 times - 2013 State Championship, 2018 State Championship, and 2019 ISU vs NIU game. I say that to say, I don't have a vested interest one way or another.

If you're just asking my opinion, I think it is a little silly. The TV exposure is great, but I don't think it is worth messing up the game day experience. I'm sure the MAC follows the $$$ which would show that it is worth it. There are enough gamblers and football crazies who love watching those games on TV to make it worth it, I suppose. NIU had 3 Tuesday games, including 2 home games. As an NIU fan, I probably wouldn't mind one weekday home game. Tuesdays just sound like an awful day to play, but that's what you get when you are entirely submissive to ESPN/CBS in your scheduling.

It doesn't look like it affected attendance as badly as I thought before looking at the numbers:
Saturday, October 21 2:30 pm kickoff: 9,458
Tuesday, November 7 6 pm kickoff: 6,282
Tuesday, November 14 6 pm kickoff: 6,417
I assume the weather was a fair amount nicer for an afternoon game on October 21st.

Now if the MVFC ever announced something similar, I would definitely roll my eyes.

FIFY .. just needed a bigger font to those who would settle for MAC, if they ever invited us. May or may not help football-wise. But would definitely hurt all other sports.

 

[Total Red]

We got some good replies to this question as the general topic was also discussed in other threads. If I borrow a comment from you then know that I only steal from the best.

North Dakota, South Dakota and Montana have some distinct advantages and disadvantages. As noted in my initial post all of these schools are located in low density population areas and all of them have enrollments lower than Illinois State. The population is so sparse that none of these can ever hope to land an NFL franchise and none of them even has an FBS football program. It may sound boring in Sticksville but the lack of competition can be an advantage. FCS football is one of the biggest attractions around. Montana drew over 20,000 for each of their 3 home playoffs games. The North Dakota St. playoff game at Montana drew over 26,000 as Bison fans will gladly travel hundreds of miles. I'm not going to post what we've drawn for home playoff games.
FCS football and the FCS National Championship - these things are important to these people. If you want to be really good at something it really helps to start with the belief that what you are doing is vitally important and then you pursue it with passion. If the fanbase feels that way the players can feel it.
South Dakota St. just won the FCS National Championship for the 2nd straight year. The Jacks had a veteran roster with several 6th year Seniors on offense. Those 6th year Seniors had options. They could have gone into the transfer portal, and some could start for FBS programs. They could have declared for the NFL draft last year. They could have retired from football with their National Championship rings and moved on. They could have done all of those things, but they elected to stay and win another Championship. Why? We already have the answer - it's because winning the FCS National Championship is a BIG DEAL TO THESE PEOPLE. Hit me Baby one more time!

So the wasteland to northwest rules and their secret is out. If you want to be really good at something, get really passionate about it.
Does that describe the Redbird fanbase?