Success of the Big 6 - explain please

[StLRedbird]

We got some good replies to this question as the general topic was also discussed in other threads. If I borrow a comment from you then know that I only steal from the best.

North Dakota, South Dakota and Montana have some distinct advantages and disadvantages. As noted in my initial post all of these schools are located in low density population areas and all of them have enrollments lower than Illinois State. The population is so sparse that none of these can ever hope to land an NFL franchise and none of them even has an FBS football program. It may sound boring in Sticksville but the lack of competition can be an advantage. FCS football is one of the biggest attractions around. Montana drew over 20,000 for each of their 3 home playoffs games. The North Dakota St. playoff game at Montana drew over 26,000 as Bison fans will gladly travel hundreds of miles. I'm not going to post what we've drawn for home playoff games.
FCS football and the FCS National Championship - these things are important to these people. If you want to be really good at something it really helps to start with the belief that what you are doing is vitally important and then you pursue it with passion. If the fanbase feels that way the players can feel it.
South Dakota St. just won the FCS National Championship for the 2nd straight year. The Jacks had a veteran roster with several 6th year Seniors on offense. Those 6th year Seniors had options. They could have gone into the transfer portal, and some could start for FBS programs. They could have declared for the NFL draft last year. They could have retired from football with their National Championship rings and moved on. They could have done all of those things, but they elected to stay and win another Championship. Why? We already have the answer - it's because winning the FCS National Championship is a BIG DEAL TO THESE PEOPLE. Hit me Baby one more time!

So the wasteland to northwest rules and their secret is out. If you want to be really good at something, get really passionate about it.
Does that describe the Redbird fanbase?

Given this, are there future implications for ISU? That is, let's say these six get so dominant in FCS, they try their hand at FBS. With the Pac12 situation yet to sort out, who in the world knows if these guys are the basis for re-stocking a depleted Mountain West or some other unimaginable thing? Were I king, the MVC would've been prioritizing the acceptance the Dakota schools. That opinion is in a distinct minority, but I still think it still makes strategic sense.

 

[fourthandshort]

Given this, are there future implications for ISU? That is, let's say these six get so dominant in FCS, they try their hand at FBS. With the Pac12 situation yet to sort out, who in the world knows if these guys are the basis for re-stocking a depleted Mountain West or some other unimaginable thing? Were I king, the MVC would've been prioritizing the acceptance the Dakota schools. That opinion is in a distinct minority, but I still think it still makes strategic sense.

MVFC was just a average to pretty good conference before the Dakotas. While I wish we were still a 9 team conference, that played all 8 opponents every year. I get changes were inevitable. So I wasn't opposed to adding USD and then UND. But I am 100% in favor of MVFC doing everything they can to keep NDSU and SDSU, which means keeping USD and UND. And I definitely prefer our FCS playoff system to the FBS Bowl system .. even though we fall short more than any of us would like.

 

[Total Red]

Given this, are there future implications for ISU? That is, let's say these six get so dominant in FCS, they try their hand at FBS. With the Pac12 situation yet to sort out, who in the world knows if these guys are the basis for re-stocking a depleted Mountain West or some other unimaginable thing? Were I king, the MVC would've been prioritizing the acceptance the Dakota schools. That opinion is in a distinct minority, but I still think it still makes strategic sense.

Fair question. Let's pretend the Big 6 all get invited to join the Mountain West. The MW immediately loses TV contract value because it has just added a bunch of small market athletic programs. The costs for these schools to field FBS teams goes up but does revenue increase enough to match it? Maybe, maybe not. From a competitive standpoint the top of the FCS is already equal to or better than the bottom of the FBS.
It mostly comes back to the "would you rather" question we've dealt with many times before and there isn't a wrong answer. Would you rather compete for a minor bowl bid or for an FCS National Championship? The expanded FBS playoffs may allow a team from the MW to someday gain entry with an undefeated record but that will be very rare, and they won't win the Championship.

North Dakota St. has been wrestling with this for over a decade now and they've remained FCS. They're special because of what they accomplished as an FCS program. If they go FBS they become that dreaded "mediocre" term that people here love to toss around. South Dakota St. may feel the same way.

Lastly, I would say that the Big 6 have done very well but I do not see their dominance increasing and they could even fall back. They have strengths but they have weaknesses too. All these schools have to cast a wide net to recruit because there aren't enough D-I players within each state. The nearest metro area to Fargo, ND is Minneapolis-St. Paul. Illinois State has Chicago, St. Louis and Indianapolis all closer to Normal than MSP is to Fargo. Illinois State has a larger and more culturally diverse student body, and our winters aren't nearly as brutal. We've also closed the facilities gap somewhat with Hancock 2.0 and the IPF. The Valley is the most dominant D-I football conference and the Redbirds have the potential to win that conference.

 

[fourthandshort]

just reposting this to TRs point.... 8 smallest population states: ND, SD, and Montana ... 6 FCS playoff teams from 3 of the 8 smallest states. It is not a coincidence IMO.

• Wyoming - 576,851.
• Vermont - 643,077.
• Alaska - 733,391.
• North Dakota - 779,094.
• South Dakota - 886,667.
• Delaware - 989,948.
• Montana - 1,084,225.
• Rhode Island - 1,097,379

Top 11 FCS football attendances in 2023 .. #'s 2, 3, 6, 11 .. and 24 (UND) ... are those same 3 states. Also not a coincidence IMO.

Rank	Avg	%
1 Jackson St.	30,060	75.1
2 Montana	26,269	104.1
3 Montana St.	21,610	121.5
4 Alabama St.	19,690	74.3
5 Tarleton St.	18,697	77.9
6 SDSU	18,208	94.1
7 FAMU	17,616	89.7
8 Southern	17,465	61.2
9 Norfolk St.	15,656	52.1
10 Delaware	15,564	86.1
11 NDSU	15,121	80.8

 

[ChiRedbirdfan]

just reposting this to TRs point.... 8 smallest population states: ND, SD, and Montana ... 6 FCS playoff teams from 3 of the 8 smallest states. It is not a coincidence IMO.

• Wyoming - 576,851.
• Vermont - 643,077.
• Alaska - 733,391.
• North Dakota - 779,094.
• South Dakota - 886,667.
• Delaware - 989,948.
• Montana - 1,084,225.
• Rhode Island - 1,097,379

Top 11 FCS football attendances in 2023 .. #'s 2, 3, 6, 11 .. and 24 (UND) ... are those same 3 states. Also not a coincidence IMO.

Rank	Avg	%
1 Jackson St.	30,060	75.1
2 Montana	26,269	104.1
3 Montana St.	21,610	121.5
4 Alabama St.	19,690	74.3
5 Tarleton St.	18,697	77.9
6 SDSU	18,208	94.1
7 FAMU	17,616	89.7
8 Southern	17,465	61.2
9 Norfolk St.	15,656	52.1
10 Delaware	15,564	86.1
11 NDSU	15,121	80.8

Not certain how to objectively process this info...either view it as FCS being very relevant in low population states especially if you reside in one of those areas or view it as basically FCS being non-relevant to the vast majority of the US ?

 

[topiarydan]

Either be a D1 (FBS) or a D2 (Playoff)
FCS is and always will be a minor league division to test/poach our best while we serve as an option of redemption of FBS players who start at their initial schools. So if NCAA waives stadium size and attendance bs (think Eastern Michigan) then why not have MVC jump up to FBS - will bring some more prestige to football and to overall stature of university. Again I'd much rather see us play a Tulsa, Memphis or Miami OH at home than seeing the Coyotes from USD come to town

 

[fourthandshort]

Not certain how to objectively process this info...either view it as FCS being very relevant in low population states especially if you reside in one of those areas or view it as basically FCS being non-relevant to the vast majority of the US ?

both, I guess .. as strong as they are, they have very limited upside. ISU has way more upside than these 6 programs. But it is very questionable if we could ever even reach their level, much less succeed at FBS level. We deal with many other headwinds.

But my main point is these are medium sized fish in very small ponds, who have strong football programs making it very easy to dominate the headlines and draw crowds as 1 of 2 games in town/state. And that I think this goes hand in hand, as a possible inherent formula for success, if you can build a good football program. Can only be one headline, one lead story, one thing you talk about first on sport radio, podcasts, etc. in the entire state. NDSU owns UND in football, and UND owns NDSU in hockey. Similarly, SDSU owns USD in football. But all 4 have done well. Montana and Mont St have both done very well over the years .. so both are successful in their state.

 

[Total Red]

Again I'd much rather see us play a Tulsa, Memphis or Miami OH at home than seeing the Coyotes from USD come to town

It might get you to more games but not many others. Some of us old-timers remember when we WERE in a football conference with Tulsa (and Wichita St.) The Valley was one conference back then (early 80's), not separate for football and basketball. It didn't make any difference; attendance was much the same as it is today. Fans showed up for special events (Homecoming and Family Day) and not so much for other games. The opponent has never been much of a factor in Redbird Football attendance.

 

[ChiRedbirdfan]

Either be a D1 (FBS) or a D2 (Playoff)
FCS is and always will be a minor league division to test/poach our best while we serve as an option of redemption of FBS players who start at their initial schools. So if NCAA waives stadium size and attendance bs (think Eastern Michigan) then why not have MVC jump up to FBS - will bring some more prestige to football and to overall stature of university. Again I'd much rather see us play a Tulsa, Memphis or Miami OH at home than seeing the Coyotes from USD come to town

Your initial statement makes so much sense to me. The puzzling part of FCS for me is why would a university now want to be in the FCS level of college football? I know FCS has gradually evolved to what it is today so most FCS'ers didn't sign up for what it has become. FCS today is basically 80 to 90% of the expense (or may even be 100% compared to some MAC programs) of being low level FBS without any meaningful opportunity for revenue generation or marketing of the university. From a financial perspective I understand why there has been a steady exodus of FCS to FBS.

Put me in the camp of one that would go to ISU for some FBS football games against a Miami of OH or Memphis. I too have dropped season tickets and completely stopped going to ISU home football games. When ISU plays a Northwestern, Iowa ...etc in football I go to those games barring a significant calendar conflict. Also put me in the camp of one that would enjoy watching ISU play football on a week night....i may be in the minority but to be at home and have a good meal and watch ISU football with fewer conflicts is appealing. For me there are too many other football games of interest/activities on the weekend.

 

[StLRedbird]

Fair question. Let's pretend the Big 6 all get invited to join the Mountain West. The MW immediately loses TV contract value because it has just added a bunch of small market athletic programs. The costs for these schools to field FBS teams goes up but does revenue increase enough to match it? Maybe, maybe not. From a competitive standpoint the top of the FCS is already equal to or better than the bottom of the FBS.
It mostly comes back to the "would you rather" question we've dealt with many times before and there isn't a wrong answer. Would you rather compete for a minor bowl bid or for an FCS National Championship? The expanded FBS playoffs may allow a team from the MW to someday gain entry with an undefeated record but that will be very rare, and they won't win the Championship.

North Dakota St. has been wrestling with this for over a decade now and they've remained FCS. They're special because of what they accomplished as an FCS program. If they go FBS they become that dreaded "mediocre" term that people here love to toss around. South Dakota St. may feel the same way.

Lastly, I would say that the Big 6 have done very well but I do not see their dominance increasing and they could even fall back. They have strengths but they have weaknesses too. All these schools have to cast a wide net to recruit because there aren't enough D-I players within each state. The nearest metro area to Fargo, ND is Minneapolis-St. Paul. Illinois State has Chicago, St. Louis and Indianapolis all closer to Normal than MSP is to Fargo. Illinois State has a larger and more culturally diverse student body, and our winters aren't nearly as brutal. We've also closed the facilities gap somewhat with Hancock 2.0 and the IPF. The Valley is the most dominant D-I football conference and the Redbirds have the potential to win that conference.

Sorry for kindling an FBS vs FCS fire, that wasn't my intent. Next time I talk w one of those bashful Bizen fans, I'm gonna ask why they were never in a conference w Montana/MSU. Whatever the reason, these Dakota schools have traditionally looked east and that's to our benefit. My only point was that that orientation ain't carved in stone. ISU football benefits from being in the same conference with these guys.

 

[fourthandshort]

Sorry for kindling an FBS vs FCS fire, that wasn't my intent. Next time I talk w one of those bashful Bizen fans, I'm gonna ask why they were never in a conference w Montana/MSU. Whatever the reason, these Dakota schools have traditionally looked east and that's to our benefit. My only point was that that orientation ain't carved in stone. ISU football benefits from being in the same conference with these guys.

Until the last 5 years, the Big Sky was just not very good, nor tough. So the Dakotas would NOT have benefitted much going from D-II to Great West then into Big Sky - they were smart about pushing for MVFC, and have raised the bar a lot asa result. Others from Great West had to go to Big Sky logistically.

The CAA dominated in the 2000-10 era, as well as Socon a distant 2nd, then the rest of us. But the Big Sky was never much for tough balanced football until recently. Putting aside NDSU and now SDSU, the current Big Sky is certainly as good as the rest of the MVFC IMO and are clearly the 2nd best conference now .. well ahead of CAA ad Socon .. though Socon is making bit of move the last few years. CAA has now slipped behind Socon IMO.

 

[ChiRedbirdfan]

Sorry for kindling an FBS vs FCS fire, that wasn't my intent. Next time I talk w one of those bashful Bizen fans, I'm gonna ask why they were never in a conference w Montana/MSU. Whatever the reason, these Dakota schools have traditionally looked east and that's to our benefit. My only point was that that orientation ain't carved in stone. ISU football benefits from being in the same conference with these guys.

geography and demographics could be part? all of the mvfc locals, except youngstown, is much closer to fargo than missoula, mt. plus virtually no peeps between fargo and missoula for recruiting of students to the uni and athletes to the team. air travel westward may be challenging too although likely not too easy eastward/south either?

 

[StLRedbird]

Until the last 5 years, the Big Sky was just not very good, nor tough. So the Dakotas would NOT have benefitted much going from D-II to Great West then into Big Sky - they were smart about pushing for MVFC, and have raised the bar a lot asa result. Others from Great West had to go to Big Sky logistically.

The CAA dominated in the 2000-10 era, as well as Socon a distant 2nd, then the rest of us. But the Big Sky was never much for tough balanced football until recently. Putting aside NDSU and now SDSU, the current Big Sky is certainly as good as the rest of the MVFC IMO and are clearly the 2nd best conference now .. well ahead of CAA ad Socon .. though Socon is making bit of move the last few years. CAA has now slipped behind Socon IMO.

I didn't look much at the Great West - focused much more on the NCC. Charter members of GW were NDSU, SDSU, Cal Poly, UC Davis, No Colo, and So Utah. So an eastern orientation was flat wrong, but more reflective of the NCC. Anyway, given the charters of the GW, doesn't it look like NDSU and SDSU would've jumped at an invite from the Big Sky? The initial GW sure looks like a coalition of orphans and D-II to FCS aspirants.

 

[fourthandshort]

I didn't look much at the Great West - focused much more on the NCC. Charter members of GW were NDSU, SDSU, Cal Poly, UC Davis, No Colo, and So Utah. So an eastern orientation was flat wrong, but more reflective of the NCC. Anyway, given the charters of the GW, doesn't it look like NDSU and SDSU would've jumped at an invite from the Big Sky? The initial GW sure looks like a coalition of orphans and D-II to FCS aspirants.

I think it was just convenient first step going to GW from D-II .. but not sure as i wasn't paying attention to FCS at that time. But geographically, it made a little more sense to go east than west once the GW stepping stone was breaking up.

I'll bet others here know way more than I do.

 

[MadBird]

both, I guess .. as strong as they are, they have very limited upside. ISU has way more upside than these 6 programs. But it is very questionable if we could ever even reach their level, much less succeed at FBS level. We deal with many other headwinds.

But my main point is these are medium sized fish in very small ponds, who have strong football programs making it very easy to dominate the headlines and draw crowds as 1 of 2 games in town/state. And that I think this goes hand in hand, as a possible inherent formula for success, if you can build a good football program. Can only be one headline, one lead story, one thing you talk about first on sport radio, podcasts, etc. in the entire state. NDSU owns UND in football, and UND owns NDSU in hockey. Similarly, SDSU owns USD in football. But all 4 have done well. Montana and Mont St have both done very well over the years .. so both are successful in their state.

Mostly because the Bisons don't have hockey I'd guess. UND has a quite a history in DI hockey in any case.

There are other fairly respectable DII (and DIII and NAIA) football programs in the Dakotas. Augustana was in the DII playoffs this year. Washington Huskies coach DeBoer was previously at U of Sioux Falls and won 3 national champs in NAIA. They're DII now.

 

[fourthandshort]

It might get you to more games but not many others. Some of us old-timers remember when we WERE in a football conference with Tulsa (and Wichita St.) The Valley was one conference back then (early 80's), not separate for football and basketball. It didn't make any difference; attendance was much the same as it is today. Fans showed up for special events (Homecoming and Family Day) and not so much for other games. The opponent has never been much of a factor in Redbird Football attendance.

thats pretty telling

 

[Aggie]

The only game in town and other sports team’s competition are hundreds if not thousands of miles away. I will be going to a National agricultural commodities meeting the first week of February in Nashville. North Dakota State and South Dakota State will get more conversations than Iowa State, or any other Aggie “state”. Success brings fame. There will be lots of people from Illinois there and we will have our two tables wearing red, a few Southern Alumni and U of I maybe gets a passing reference especially if the basketball team holds up. Perdue May get mentioned. Speakers that went to SDSU and NDSU will be publicly challenging each other to bets on 2024 outcome. Win it all and be in the top 4 consistently in FCS and it will all change around here. Stay 6&5 and we are invisible to others.

 

[SgtHulka]

D1.3 here we come!

NCAA could adopt sweeping proposal on NIL, trust funds, new subdivision in parts over extended period

New NCAA president Charlie Baker last month suggested radical changes to NCAA rules

www.cbssports.com

 

[StLRedbird]

D1.3 here we come!

NCAA could adopt sweeping proposal on NIL, trust funds, new subdivision in parts over extended period

New NCAA president Charlie Baker last month suggested radical changes to NCAA rules

www.cbssports.com

Thanks for posting this, Big Toe. It looks like the proposed new subdivision would be at the top of the DI stack.
FCS - 65 scholarships
FBS - 85
New - ?
FCS looks like it's getting another increment away from competing at the highest level.

 

[ChiRedbirdfan]

D1.3 here we come!

NCAA could adopt sweeping proposal on NIL, trust funds, new subdivision in parts over extended period

New NCAA president Charlie Baker last month suggested radical changes to NCAA rules

www.cbssports.com

What the ncaa proposes and its impact is so foggy when factoring in that fbs level post season football playoffs/bowls are already non-ncaa… meaning if the power conferences don’t like it than can easily break away from ncaa oversight and do their own thing since they already do that post season. So…. For the smaller (based on revenue size) football programs ok now pay the football players 30k but how about also making the paid athletes pay for their tuition, housing, meal and health insurance!!