Hein

[ricohill]

Since you seem to be the stat-master let's stay on that topic. But before we do, let's be real honest here. You have bashed Hein prior to him ever seeing the floor. Clearly you, along with many others who rip the kid have a larger issue that is likely attributed to a lack of success in many of your own athletic lives. I have read that the kid couldn't get on an intramural team, garbage time, victory cigar and the latest where one poster said his 8th grader could beat him and another calling him Rudy. It's a fine line between ignorant and stupid but a number of angry fantasy football wannabes have crossed that threshold. And if I recall Hein had 6 or 7 D1 offers and looks like his "N'Diaye package deal" obviously wasn't. The Rudy comment is beyond idiotic. It's too bad Hein illuminates the failures of many on here but to think you could do what he does is a joke. You can't and never could. It's the same group that thinks they can play on the PGA tour cause they shot a 76 in the C flight at the local muni. I know that's upsetting to many fragile egos but deal with it. That being said, let's get back to Rico and his stats. First off, anyone who is remotely objective would concur that without Hein, 5 wins last year would have been losses including the semis in STL. Next, let's look at his shooting % since you did.... It sucks. But he's shot 21 3's in a total of 22 games. A statistical irrelevancy. Next, his ass't: T/O ratio would be in the top 50 in NCAA D1 if he had the requisite number. But due to injuries he doesn't so let's be consistent here and toss that as well. A number that DOES matter after a significant number of games (which he has played) is +/-. Unless it's at garbage time (which Hein's isn't), +/- demonstrates overall impact for those additions or subtractions to the team not captured in the scorebook. Defense, extra pass, coaching on the floor, the hockey assist all factor in. So stat man....pop quiz. Who on the team has the highest overall +/-?? Uh oh...you're not going to like the answer cause it blows up your -1 and +4 narrative like when your momma told you not to put Mentos in your Coke can. But why don't you check into it, man up with the answer, and get back to the board...(spoiler alert...the answer is a kid who's out with a cast on his hand). Bottom line is you and others keep hating on the kid when his effectiveness is clear to those who see beyond your version of statsitics or the optics. There's a larger discontent with Hein by many which has zero to do with his on court performance. It's pathetic, disingenuous, and frankly I hope that recruits don't read this crap so many spew.

This is one of the funniest things I have ever read on this board.This is insulting to Rudy. After the MVC semi final against SIU when he turned the ball over and over and over and forced our starters to come back in he should have been sent packing.

First off, he was 100% a package deal. He had offers from powerhouse schools ISU, Boston, SEMO, SIUE, and James Madison....guess what schools Ndiaye had offers from? The same schools. Hein only got scholarship offers because he was tied to Ndiaye.

The assist to turnover ratio stat is comical. He does have a 2.25 to 1 assist to to ratio (this goes way down in mvc play), but Gassman has a 5.5 to 1. If that is your only reason for playing Hein then shouldn't Gassman be playing? Gassman has the 4th highest shooting percentage from 3 (Hein is the worst outside of guys that haven't taken a 3). While, Hein does lead the team in ariballs from 3. Gassman has more rebounds (Hein has the least rebounds on the team).

Not only can Hein not score. He can't play any defense. He gets beat off the dribble and forces us to rotate all over the place when he doesn't foul. There is a reason why our defense was good last night. We had guys that could stay in front of their defender and not get lost.

Not to mention his wins above replacement is -1.1which means he is below an average player.

Also, he did luckily throw in some shots against SIU last year in the semi-final. However, in the other two games he literally didn't make a shot.

I wouldn't care if Hein just sat on the end of the bench and we threw him in as a walk on, but to pay for him to be on this team and to play him 18-20 minutes a night is unacceptable. If he comes back and plays he is going to cost us.

 

[Bird Friend]

Since you seem to be the stat-master let's stay on that topic. But before we do, let's be real honest here. You have bashed Hein prior to him ever seeing the floor. Clearly you, along with many others who rip the kid have a larger issue that is likely attributed to a lack of success in many of your own athletic lives. I have read that the kid couldn't get on an intramural team, garbage time, victory cigar and the latest where one poster said his 8th grader could beat him and another calling him Rudy. It's a fine line between ignorant and stupid but a number of angry fantasy football wannabes have crossed that threshold. And if I recall Hein had 6 or 7 D1 offers and looks like his "N'Diaye package deal" obviously wasn't. The Rudy comment is beyond idiotic. It's too bad Hein illuminates the failures of many on here but to think you could do what he does is a joke. You can't and never could. It's the same group that thinks they can play on the PGA tour cause they shot a 76 in the C flight at the local muni. I know that's upsetting to many fragile egos but deal with it. That being said, let's get back to Rico and his stats. First off, anyone who is remotely objective would concur that without Hein, 5 wins last year would have been losses including the semis in STL. Next, let's look at his shooting % since you did.... It sucks. But he's shot 21 3's in a total of 22 games. A statistical irrelevancy. Next, his ass't: T/O ratio would be in the top 50 in NCAA D1 if he had the requisite number. But due to injuries he doesn't so let's be consistent here and toss that as well. A number that DOES matter after a significant number of games (which he has played) is +/-. Unless it's at garbage time (which Hein's isn't), +/- demonstrates overall impact for those additions or subtractions to the team not captured in the scorebook. Defense, extra pass, coaching on the floor, the hockey assist all factor in. So stat man....pop quiz. Who on the team has the highest overall +/-?? Uh oh...you're not going to like the answer cause it blows up your -1 and +4 narrative like when your momma told you not to put Mentos in your Coke can. But why don't you check into it, man up with the answer, and get back to the board...(spoiler alert...the answer is a kid who's out with a cast on his hand). Bottom line is you and others keep hating on the kid when his effectiveness is clear to those who see beyond your version of statsitics or the optics. There's a larger discontent with Hein by many which has zero to do with his on court performance. It's pathetic, disingenuous, and frankly I hope that recruits don't read this crap so many spew.

This is one of the funniest things I have ever read on this board. First off this is insulting to Rudy. After the MVC semi final against SIU when he turned the ball over and over and over and forced our starters to come back in he should have been sent packing.

First off, he was 100% a package deal. He had offers from powerhouse schools ISU, Boston, SEMO, SIUE, and James Madison....guess what schools Ndiaye had offers from? The same schools. Hein only got scholarship offers because he was tied to Ndiaye.

The assist to turnover ratio stat is comical. He does have a 2.25 to 1 assist to to ratio (this goes way down in mvc play), but Gassman has a 5.5 to 1. If that is your only reason for playing Hein then shouldn't Gassman be playing? Gassman has the 4th highest shooting percentage from 3 (Hein is the worst outside of guys that haven't taken a 3). While, Hein does lead the team in ariballs from 3. Gassman has more rebounds (Hein has the least rebounds on the team).

Not only can Hein not score. He can't play any defense. He gets beat off the dribble and forces us to rotate all over the place when he doesn't foul. There is a reason why our defense was good last night. We had guys that could stay in front of their defender and not get lost.

Not to mention his wins above replacement is -1.1which means he is below an average player.

Also, he did luckily throw in some shots against SIU last year in the semi-final. However, in the other two games he literally didn't make a shot.

I wouldn't care if Hein just sat on the end of the bench and we threw him in as a walk on, but to pay for him to be on this team and to play him 18-20 minutes a night is unacceptable. If he comes back and plays he is going to cost us.

Foul! Two "First off" comments in the same rebuttal. That'll hurt your posts above replacement number.

 

[ISU86]

A number that DOES matter after a significant number of games (which he has played) is +/-. Unless it's at garbage time (which Hein's isn't), +/- demonstrates overall impact for those additions or subtractions to the team not captured in the scorebook. Defense, extra pass, coaching on the floor, the hockey assist all factor in.

cobird, in all seriousness, where did you locate individual players' seasonlong +/-? I have been looking in regards to another discussion, and all I have found was some (not all) single games (and that is statistic provider dependent). I know the service Illinois State leverages for its home games does, but that leaves the neutral and road contests (and most use a variety of different sites).

You also mentioned Matt had six or seven DI offers, of which I could locate four (Boston University (originally accepted along with David N'Diaye), Illinois State (ultimately accepted along with David), Southeast Missouri State and Southrern Illinois-Edwardsville). There very well may have been more, and I do not know if SeMo or SIU-E were to both or not. Regardless, Dan was not out on the Hein (or Hein/N'Diaye) island alone.

This reminds me of the Bill Braksick days (he could get a foul called on him jumping at the opening tip-off). Bill was a local kid (Flanagan) who played three years during the height (literally, he was 7' 0") of the Bob Donewald-era before finishing up at Illinois Wesleyan. There was a similar smorgasbord of opinions concerning him as well.

An earlier poster stated that his issue wasn't with Matt specifically but rather Coach's perception/usage of him above/over other players. I think that is a fair discussion point.

Armchair quarterbacks exist everywhere. Which arm to bring out of the bullpen, what bat to pinch-hit off the bench? Second guessing is rampant, and there are very few on this board who have not done it in some form at some time.

The only one who can explain why it is the way it is happens to be the only opinion that counts, and that is the Coach ... and seriously doubt we will ever be privy to it.

My thought is there are no players on the active roster that, when playing at or near the peak of their ability/game, would not exceed Matt at or near the peak of his. I think we would be better served if Ike, Josh, Boogie, etc. were there in the eyes of Dan. For whatever reason, my guess is whether it be approach, attitude, preparation, practice, or in-game, Dan does not feel he can get/trust their overall performance/production like he can with Matt (or maybe, Dan does think Matt is the better overall contributor/player).

In hindsight, last night may have been the optimal Matt Hein storyline of a game (when the team is not struggling to put points on the board). Personally, I do not think we will be able to duplicate that very often. Yes, I think there may be games where we only four players score but I do not feel confident they will be as efficient as last night. Zach and Key, in terms of offense, have been more not than hot ... so I do think having more potential scoring options on the floor at the same time can keep an opponent from focusing (almost) solely on Phil and/or Milik.

In all fairness, others also need to produce at least at a level to try and keep the other team somewhat "honest" on defense; it is just that offense does not seemingly come as easily for Matt.

No matter how good the defense is, you do eventually have to score in order to win. And if Key/Phil/Milik/Zach are not shooting 50%-plus (or the opposition is scoring with relative ease), playing half the game effectively four-on-five is not an ideal recipe for victory.

Now, if last night was indeed a harbinger of things to come ... :clap: ... :dance: ... ray: ... well then you can now return to your regular programming.

 

[Redbirdfan06]

Out of curiousity, why are players immune to criticism just because they wear a Redbird uniform?

They're not immune to criticism. But . . .

• Criticize their play, not the player/person.

• Criticize when appropriate, not at every time the kid's name comes up. So . . . don't grind your axe on the player.

• Use some commonsense about how you criticize. The timing of the comment, wording, insinuation, etc. all matter in how your comments are perceived.

• Don't be surprised/offended/bewildered if you receive rebuttals. . . even fierce ones. There are always differing views.

So, when someone posted that milik was being watched and you said by the blono police department, that was based off his play and not the player/person? You didn’t have an axe to grind when you said that. You used common sense when you said that? Interesting.

 

[Bird Friend]

Out of curiousity, why are players immune to criticism just because they wear a Redbird uniform?

They're not immune to criticism. But . . .

• Criticize their play, not the player/person.

• Criticize when appropriate, not at every time the kid's name comes up. So . . . don't grind your axe on the player.

• Use some commonsense about how you criticize. The timing of the comment, wording, insinuation, etc. all matter in how your comments are perceived.

• Don't be surprised/offended/bewildered if you receive rebuttals. . . even fierce ones. There are always differing views.

So, when someone posted that milik was being watched and you said by the blono police department, that was based off his play and not the player/person? You didn’t have an axe to grind when you said that. You used common sense when you said that? Interesting.

No axe to grind . . . I said it once, not in every thread that mentions MY. No doubt you could pull other comments I've made about Milik and turn them to suggest I have/had an axe grind. Difference is that I also give MY his props when he plays well (as his is right now) and is the team leader he's supposed to be (which he's being right now).

Plus, it was a joke, unlike what has been said about Hein. But I suppose your lack of time on the board would make it difficult for you to determine when some longtime posters are joking/offering sarcasm/etc.

So, does that answer it for you, or are you still fondling your axe?

 

[Redbirdfan06]

They're not immune to criticism. But . . .

• Criticize their play, not the player/person.

• Criticize when appropriate, not at every time the kid's name comes up. So . . . don't grind your axe on the player.

• Use some commonsense about how you criticize. The timing of the comment, wording, insinuation, etc. all matter in how your comments are perceived.

• Don't be surprised/offended/bewildered if you receive rebuttals. . . even fierce ones. There are always differing views.

So, when someone posted that milik was being watched and you said by the blono police department, that was based off his play and not the player/person? You didn’t have an axe to grind when you said that. You used common sense when you said that? Interesting.

No axe to grind . . . I said it once, not in every thread that mentions MY. No doubt you could pull other comments I've made about Milik and turn them to suggest I have/had an axe grind. Difference is that I also give MY his props when he plays well (as his is right now) and is the team leader he's supposed to be (which he's being right now).

Plus, it was a joke, unlike what has been said about Hein. But I suppose your lack of time on the board would make it difficult for you to determine when some longtime posters are joking/offering sarcasm/etc.

So, does that answer it for you, or are you still fondling your axe?

I don’t have an axe to grind. Seems it’s more that you do with anyone that questions your posts. I just pointed out your first bullet. So I have to be an experienced poster to criticize players? And if they aren’t playing well, it’s ok? So, you can tell people how to post, but you don’t practice what you preach because you have more posts so that makes it ok? I haven’t been critical of hein so you can’t attack me there. I am just curious how you can tell how another poster how they need to post about a player and then say it’s ok how you post because you are a long time poster.

 

[Brick]

I am TRULY SORRY I started this post!

 

[JHBird]

Hein in MVC play has 17 fouls, 7 points, 11 assists, and 7 turnovers. 2-14 from the field and 0-9 from 3. Phil, Milik, and Rey are the only players with a worse assist to turnover ratio.

I heard the Coach say that Gassman can play the Hein role. At least he has a chance of hitting some threes..
I've always scratched my head at how Hein is the first player off the bench, but the coach knows more than I, so he must be doing it for a reason.
Anyway, we need Hein back for our depth, but I hope the Hein of last year comes back, not the one we've been seeing this year. His shot is so awful this year, that I'm sure other teams see him as 'unguardable' -- but for all the wrong reasons.

 

[ISU FAN 1]

There’s a certain amount of white privilege that has seeped into college basketball. Especially from the fan perspective. Can’t imagine if Hein were black, he would have as many defenders. He clearly rode the coattails of a 7-footer to get this gig, so it’s not all that surprising he lacks in some of the D1 skills we are used to seeing. If you don’t think white makes a difference in the eyes of fans, go look at the glue guy thread. Other than Perez, it’s all white guys that hold or glue a team together.

:text-+1:

It's not complicated why many support Matt Hein. He's a character guy who selflessly gave up his ride for the benefit of the team. We should applaud that, right?

To be clear, NOBODY is defending his basketball talent as being remotely on par with our expectations for a shooting guard. But since he's consistently filled in unforeseen gaps due to injuries, suspensions, etc, it's fairly hard to root against a player that does everything asked of him. He's the guy the crowd rooted for to simply put up a shot just a few years ago. He's also the guy that's helped us win games despite punching WAY above his weight class.

White privilege? I'd urge you to see Matt for the content of his character rather than his skin color. It's not fair to accuse Matt or other fans of intentional or unintentional bias based on arbitrary features such as skin color. Shameful default position, in my opinion....

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

I see Hein for what he is, and judge him as a basketball player. And why would I judge someone on their character that I don’t know anything about? In my orbit, he’s a basketball player, so that’s how I’ll judge him. Just my observation that many ISU fans fall in love with and are more likely to become apologists/defenders for our talent deficient white guys. The over compensation for these guys has been apparent to me over the years. Alex Rubin is another good example. Or the concern over Gassman’s lack of minutes this year. If my observation is accurate, then it’s those fans making judgement on skin color.

 

[ISU FAN 1]

Since you seem to be the stat-master let's stay on that topic. But before we do, let's be real honest here. You have bashed Hein prior to him ever seeing the floor. Clearly you, along with many others who rip the kid have a larger issue that is likely attributed to a lack of success in many of your own athletic lives. I have read that the kid couldn't get on an intramural team, garbage time, victory cigar and the latest where one poster said his 8th grader could beat him and another calling him Rudy. It's a fine line between ignorant and stupid but a number of angry fantasy football wannabes have crossed that threshold. And if I recall Hein had 6 or 7 D1 offers and looks like his "N'Diaye package deal" obviously wasn't. The Rudy comment is beyond idiotic. It's too bad Hein illuminates the failures of many on here but to think you could do what he does is a joke. You can't and never could. It's the same group that thinks they can play on the PGA tour cause they shot a 76 in the C flight at the local muni. I know that's upsetting to many fragile egos but deal with it. That being said, let's get back to Rico and his stats. First off, anyone who is remotely objective would concur that without Hein, 5 wins last year would have been losses including the semis in STL. Next, let's look at his shooting % since you did.... It sucks. But he's shot 21 3's in a total of 22 games. A statistical irrelevancy. Next, his ass't: T/O ratio would be in the top 50 in NCAA D1 if he had the requisite number. But due to injuries he doesn't so let's be consistent here and toss that as well. A number that DOES matter after a significant number of games (which he has played) is +/-. Unless it's at garbage time (which Hein's isn't), +/- demonstrates overall impact for those additions or subtractions to the team not captured in the scorebook. Defense, extra pass, coaching on the floor, the hockey assist all factor in. So stat man....pop quiz. Who on the team has the highest overall +/-?? Uh oh...you're not going to like the answer cause it blows up your -1 and +4 narrative like when your momma told you not to put Mentos in your Coke can. But why don't you check into it, man up with the answer, and get back to the board...(spoiler alert...the answer is a kid who's out with a cast on his hand). Bottom line is you and others keep hating on the kid when his effectiveness is clear to those who see beyond your version of statsitics or the optics. There's a larger discontent with Hein by many which has zero to do with his on court performance. It's pathetic, disingenuous, and frankly I hope that recruits don't read this crap so many spew.

This is one of the funniest things I have ever read on this board.This is insulting to Rudy. After the MVC semi final against SIU when he turned the ball over and over and over and forced our starters to come back in he should have been sent packing.

First off, he was 100% a package deal. He had offers from powerhouse schools ISU, Boston, SEMO, SIUE, and James Madison....guess what schools Ndiaye had offers from? The same schools. Hein only got scholarship offers because he was tied to Ndiaye.

The assist to turnover ratio stat is comical. He does have a 2.25 to 1 assist to to ratio (this goes way down in mvc play), but Gassman has a 5.5 to 1. If that is your only reason for playing Hein then shouldn't Gassman be playing? Gassman has the 4th highest shooting percentage from 3 (Hein is the worst outside of guys that haven't taken a 3). While, Hein does lead the team in ariballs from 3. Gassman has more rebounds (Hein has the least rebounds on the team).

Not only can Hein not score. He can't play any defense. He gets beat off the dribble and forces us to rotate all over the place when he doesn't foul. There is a reason why our defense was good last night. We had guys that could stay in front of their defender and not get lost.

Not to mention his wins above replacement is -1.1which means he is below an average player.

Also, he did luckily throw in some shots against SIU last year in the semi-final. However, in the other two games he literally didn't make a shot.

I wouldn't care if Hein just sat on the end of the bench and we threw him in as a walk on, but to pay for him to be on this team and to play him 18-20 minutes a night is unacceptable. If he comes back and plays he is going to cost us.

We should just ignore stats, better known as facts, and just using bias and optics to form opinions. Saracasm.

 

[gobirds72]

They're not immune to criticism. But . . .

• Criticize their play, not the player/person.

• Criticize when appropriate, not at every time the kid's name comes up. So . . . don't grind your axe on the player.

• Use some commonsense about how you criticize. The timing of the comment, wording, insinuation, etc. all matter in how your comments are perceived.

• Don't be surprised/offended/bewildered if you receive rebuttals. . . even fierce ones. There are always differing views.

So, when someone posted that milik was being watched and you said by the blono police department, that was based off his play and not the player/person? You didn’t have an axe to grind when you said that. You used common sense when you said that? Interesting.

No axe to grind . . . I said it once, not in every thread that mentions MY. No doubt you could pull other comments I've made about Milik and turn them to suggest I have/had an axe grind. Difference is that I also give MY his props when he plays well (as his is right now) and is the team leader he's supposed to be (which he's being right now).

Plus, it was a joke, unlike what has been said about Hein. But I suppose your lack of time on the board would make it difficult for you to determine when some longtime posters are joking/offering sarcasm/etc.

So, does that answer it for you, or are you still fondling your axe?

It’s amazing how you hold yourself to a different standard that the rest of us. Don’t ever lecture me again about talking about a kids skill and playing time. I never once put down Hein as a person. I will not even respond to you again after learning your comment on Yarborough. You have lost all credibility in my eyes.

 

[birdlife]

this thread is amazing

 

[BIGfan]

I hope Hein's hand heals... after the season is over.

 

[isuquinndog]

That's enough name calling, etc. Both of each other and a Redbird player.