Wichita State

[Bird Friend]

Who has earned more for the salary they are given? Muller or Marshall?

Without a doubt Marshall!!

Marshall vs. Muller first 7 seasons.

What’s funny is Marshall came into a much worse situation that Muller and improved. Muller came into a great situation and destroyed it.


Marshall
2007–08 Wichita State 11–20 4–14 9th
2008–09 Wichita State 17–17 8–10 T–5th CBI Second Round
2009–10 Wichita State 25–10 12–6 2nd NIT First Round
2010–11 Wichita State 29–8 14–4 2nd NIT Champion
2011–12 Wichita State 27–6 16–2 1st NCAA Division I Round of 64
2012–13 Wichita State 30–9 12–6 2nd NCAA Division I Final Four
2013–14 Wichita State 35–1 18–0 1st NCAA Division I Round of 32
2014–15 Wichita State 30–5 17–1 1st NCAA Division I Sweet 16

Muller
2012–13 Illinois State 18–15 8–10 6th
2013–14 Illinois State 18–16 9–9 5th CBI Semifinal
2014–15 Illinois State 22–13 11–7 T–3rd NIT Second Round
2015–16 Illinois State 18–14 12–6 T–2nd
2016–17 Illinois State 28–7 17–1 T–1st NIT Second Round
2017–18 Illinois State 18–15 10–8 T–3rd
2018–19 Illinois State 17–16 9–9 T–5th

Pre-Marshall 2006-2007 WSU 17-14 (8-10) . . . can’t say as I think the improvement was immediate, considering 2 years of worse records than Marshall inherited. And to say Dan immediately destroyed ISU is overly dramatic, especially considering Jank’ last year was a last-second bank shot from being a Thursday nite team.

Stats are important. Context is required.

 

[Buffett]

Stats are important enough here. He did more in year four than Dan has done to date

 

[ricohill]

Without a doubt Marshall!!

Marshall vs. Muller first 7 seasons.

What’s funny is Marshall came into a much worse situation that Muller and improved. Muller came into a great situation and destroyed it.


Marshall
2007–08 Wichita State 11–20 4–14 9th
2008–09 Wichita State 17–17 8–10 T–5th CBI Second Round
2009–10 Wichita State 25–10 12–6 2nd NIT First Round
2010–11 Wichita State 29–8 14–4 2nd NIT Champion
2011–12 Wichita State 27–6 16–2 1st NCAA Division I Round of 64
2012–13 Wichita State 30–9 12–6 2nd NCAA Division I Final Four
2013–14 Wichita State 35–1 18–0 1st NCAA Division I Round of 32
2014–15 Wichita State 30–5 17–1 1st NCAA Division I Sweet 16

Muller
2012–13 Illinois State 18–15 8–10 6th
2013–14 Illinois State 18–16 9–9 5th CBI Semifinal
2014–15 Illinois State 22–13 11–7 T–3rd NIT Second Round
2015–16 Illinois State 18–14 12–6 T–2nd
2016–17 Illinois State 28–7 17–1 T–1st NIT Second Round
2017–18 Illinois State 18–15 10–8 T–3rd
2018–19 Illinois State 17–16 9–9 T–5th

Pre-Marshall 2006-2007 WSU 17-14 (8-10) . . . can’t say as I think the improvement was immediate, considering 2 years of worse records than Marshall inherited. And to say Dan immediately destroyed ISU is overly dramatic, especially considering Jank’ last year was a last-second bank shot from being a Thursday nite team.

Stats are important. Context is required.

Reading is important too. I said destroyed it. Didn't say immediately destroyed it.

And any argument that Muller is even in the same league as Marshall is insane.

 

[stats]

especially considering Jank’ last year was a last-second bank shot from being a Thursday nite team.

Stats are important. Context is required.

Jank's last year was a team with no seniors that made it to the second round of the NIT. The cupboard had plenty of talent when he left.

 

[ricohill]

especially considering Jank’ last year was a last-second bank shot from being a Thursday nite team.

Stats are important. Context is required.

Jank's last year was a team with no seniors that made it to the second round of the NIT. The cupboard had plenty of talent when he left.

Nic Moore left, but Jackie and Tyler Brown are head and shoulders better than anyone we have now.

 

[stats]

especially considering Jank’ last year was a last-second bank shot from being a Thursday nite team.

Stats are important. Context is required.

Jank's last year was a team with no seniors that made it to the second round of the NIT. The cupboard had plenty of talent when he left.

Nic Moore left, but Jackie and Tyler Brown are head and shoulders better than anyone we have now.

Not to mention the rest of the roster was young with talent. Jon Wilkins, a freshman Jordan Threloff(one of the top rebounders in the MAC for 2 years) and another 6'9 freshman John Jones. There were also 4 big 10 players from that team in Ekey, Johny Hill, Zeisloft and Bryant Allen. Filling out that roster was Trey Blue, Darius Clark, Anthony Cousin and Zeke Upshaw. The roster included 5 freshman, 3 sophomores and 6 juniors.

 

[Bird Friend]

Marshall vs. Muller first 7 seasons.

What’s funny is Marshall came into a much worse situation that Muller and improved. Muller came into a great situation and destroyed it.


Marshall
2007–08 Wichita State 11–20 4–14 9th
2008–09 Wichita State 17–17 8–10 T–5th CBI Second Round
2009–10 Wichita State 25–10 12–6 2nd NIT First Round
2010–11 Wichita State 29–8 14–4 2nd NIT Champion
2011–12 Wichita State 27–6 16–2 1st NCAA Division I Round of 64
2012–13 Wichita State 30–9 12–6 2nd NCAA Division I Final Four
2013–14 Wichita State 35–1 18–0 1st NCAA Division I Round of 32
2014–15 Wichita State 30–5 17–1 1st NCAA Division I Sweet 16

Muller
2012–13 Illinois State 18–15 8–10 6th
2013–14 Illinois State 18–16 9–9 5th CBI Semifinal
2014–15 Illinois State 22–13 11–7 T–3rd NIT Second Round
2015–16 Illinois State 18–14 12–6 T–2nd
2016–17 Illinois State 28–7 17–1 T–1st NIT Second Round
2017–18 Illinois State 18–15 10–8 T–3rd
2018–19 Illinois State 17–16 9–9 T–5th

Pre-Marshall 2006-2007 WSU 17-14 (8-10) . . . can’t say as I think the improvement was immediate, considering 2 years of worse records than Marshall inherited. And to say Dan immediately destroyed ISU is overly dramatic, especially considering Jank’ last year was a last-second bank shot from being a Thursday nite team.

Stats are important. Context is required.

Reading is important too. I said destroyed it. Didn't say immediately destroyed it.

And any argument that Muller is even in the same league as Marshall is insane.

Never said they were in same league. Just saying you're overly dramatic. Getting to a COY, again is hardly destroying anything.

 

[ricohill]

Pre-Marshall 2006-2007 WSU 17-14 (8-10) . . . can’t say as I think the improvement was immediate, considering 2 years of worse records than Marshall inherited. And to say Dan immediately destroyed ISU is overly dramatic, especially considering Jank’ last year was a last-second bank shot from being a Thursday nite team.

Stats are important. Context is required.

Reading is important too. I said destroyed it. Didn't say immediately destroyed it.

And any argument that Muller is even in the same league as Marshall is insane.

Never said they were in same league. Just saying you're overly dramatic. Getting to a COY, again is hardly destroying anything.

I’d ask SIU fans if Barry Hinson and Chris Lowery destroyed their program...they won 3 coach of the year awards combined at SIU.

 

[CaliRdBrd]

Nagy won coach of the year...

‘Nuf said

 

[jamminjamarsmiley]

I think we're comparing Dan to the wrong guy. I'd love ISU to be at the WSU level, but we're not in the same galaxy.

How about comparing Dan to Wardle, Mullins, DeVries, Moser etc. These are all coaches who have taken over programs that were basically at or near rock bottom and they have passed ISU by my account. That is what bothers me more than Marshall owning Dan on a regular basis.

 

[Bird Friend]

especially considering Jank’ last year was a last-second bank shot from being a Thursday nite team.

Stats are important. Context is required.

Jank's last year was a team with no seniors that made it to the second round of the NIT. The cupboard had plenty of talent when he left.

As I said when it happened, the loss of Moore was worse than the loss of Jank. We had nobody at the PG position, and no floor leader.

Nic Moore left, but Jackie and Tyler Brown are head and shoulders better than anyone we have now.

Won't disagree with this, but if no Moore . . .

Not to mention the rest of the roster was young with talent. Jon Wilkins, a freshman Jordan Threloff(one of the top rebounders in the MAC for 2 years) and another 6'9 freshman John Jones. There were also 4 big 10 players from that team in Ekey, Johny Hill, Zeisloft and Bryant Allen. Filling out that roster was Trey Blue, Darius Clark, Anthony Cousin and Zeke Upshaw. The roster included 5 freshman, 3 sophomores and 6 juniors.

• Wilkins . . . underwhelming considering the hype. Certainly not his dad.

• Jones was not on the team with Brown/Carmichael. Nor did he ever match the hype.

• Allen started B10 and had to move down. Was kicked off the football team, and eventually the basketball team. Was such a streaky player you couldn't count on him from game to game.

• Hill was Reeves without the range, who also shouldn't have been put in the PG position. And I say Reeves is a smarter player. Hill also wasn't a B10 player until his 5th year.

• Ekey was a role player. Chastain type. Also not a B10 player until he was a senior.

• Zeisloft played above his athleticism, and completely out of position. He was a smart kid who used his IQ and drive to make himself better and give himself a better opportunity.

• Blue, Clark, Cousin, and Upshaw . . . really?

No true PG killed the 2012-13 team. Even had Jank stayed, they wouldn't have been as good without Moore. The 2011-12 team stumbled into St. Louis, and then got hot. They were not that good.

 

[Bird Friend]

Reading is important too. I said destroyed it. Didn't say immediately destroyed it.

And any argument that Muller is even in the same league as Marshall is insane.

Never said they were in same league. Just saying you're overly dramatic. Getting to a COY, again is hardly destroying anything.

I’d ask SIU fans if Barry Hinson and Chris Lowery destroyed their program...they won 3 coach of the year awards combined at SIU.

Good for you.

 

[Bird Friend]

I think we're comparing Dan to the wrong guy. I'd love ISU to be at the WSU level, but we're not in the same galaxy.

How about comparing Dan to Wardle, Mullins, DeVries, Moser etc. These are all coaches who have taken over programs that were basically at or near rock bottom and they have passed ISU by my account. That is what bothers me more than Marshall owning Dan on a regular basis.

Moser . . . didn't he take over a rock bottom program in Normal, IL? How'd that turn out?

 

[ricohill]

I think we're comparing Dan to the wrong guy. I'd love ISU to be at the WSU level, but we're not in the same galaxy.

How about comparing Dan to Wardle, Mullins, DeVries, Moser etc. These are all coaches who have taken over programs that were basically at or near rock bottom and they have passed ISU by my account. That is what bothers me more than Marshall owning Dan on a regular basis.

Moser . . . didn't he take over a rock bottom program in Normal, IL? How'd that turn out?

To be fair the last year of Richardson we had a KenPom rating of 215. Moser’s first year that team was 177. Moser’s final team was 86. They got a lot better. Moser’s last team probably wins the MVC this year. That’s how bad the MVC has gotten.

Janko’s last year the rating was 93 (for a team you described as awful and got lucky). Muller’s first year was 63 and now 212.

I don’t think Moser turns out well, but he was young coaching in a tough MVC. However, if he gets 8 years, who knows? Also, he recruited better than Muller (way better in the Midwest) than muller outside of Dan’s first full recruiting class.

 

[stats]

• Wilkins . . . underwhelming considering the hype. Certainly not his dad.

• Jones was not on the team with Brown/Carmichael. Nor did he ever match the hype.

• Allen started B10 and had to move down. Was kicked off the football team, and eventually the basketball team. Was such a streaky player you couldn't count on him from game to game.

• Hill was Reeves without the range, who also shouldn't have been put in the PG position. And I say Reeves is a smarter player. Hill also wasn't a B10 player until his 5th year.

• Ekey was a role player. Chastain type. Also not a B10 player until he was a senior.

• Zeisloft played above his athleticism, and completely out of position. He was a smart kid who used his IQ and drive to make himself better and give himself a better opportunity.

• Blue, Clark, Cousin, and Upshaw . . . really?

No true PG killed the 2012-13 team. Even had Jank stayed, they wouldn't have been as good without Moore. The 2011-12 team stumbled into St. Louis, and then got hot. They were not that good.

So hear is your analysis just so I understand. The players were not that good.
Wilkins was underwhleming(not his dad)....Fair comparison to a guy that played 6 years in the NBA.
Jones never matched the hype.
Allen was a streaky player you couldn't count on...........still was talented enough that Minnesota wanted him
Hill had no range and wasn't as smart as a freshman........even though he was good enough to play at Purdue.
Ekey was a role player.......even though he started 23 games with U of I, that is considered a role player.
Zeisloft was not athletic.......but he was good enough to go play at Indiana
Zeke Upshaw (really?).......I guess you want more from a reserve than a guy that plays 2 years in the G league.

They were not a team that just stumbled into St. Louis and got hot. They were a young team that had to develop and learn how to play. The NIT sets the criteria a little higher than you described it.

The cupboard was full with Jackie C, Tree and Tyler Brown. Not to mention, Anthony Beane Jr was committed to the team. I think it is fair to say that most of those players regressed under Dan. The ones that left got better.

Be honest. Was the program in better shape when he took it over or where he has it?

 

[jamminjamarsmiley]

I think we're comparing Dan to the wrong guy. I'd love ISU to be at the WSU level, but we're not in the same galaxy.

How about comparing Dan to Wardle, Mullins, DeVries, Moser etc. These are all coaches who have taken over programs that were basically at or near rock bottom and they have passed ISU by my account. That is what bothers me more than Marshall owning Dan on a regular basis.

Moser . . . didn't he take over a rock bottom program in Normal, IL? How'd that turn out?

My good friend, I should have been more clear. I was referencing Moser taking over at Loyola as he went there one year before Dan was hired and they entered the MVC soon thereafter. The other coaches were all hired during Dans time at ISU and have Inherited much more difficult situations than Dan and have turned them around and put their programs ahead of ISU.

I forgot to add Dana Ford to that list as well.

 

[Bird Friend]

I think we're comparing Dan to the wrong guy. I'd love ISU to be at the WSU level, but we're not in the same galaxy.

How about comparing Dan to Wardle, Mullins, DeVries, Moser etc. These are all coaches who have taken over programs that were basically at or near rock bottom and they have passed ISU by my account. That is what bothers me more than Marshall owning Dan on a regular basis.

Moser . . . didn't he take over a rock bottom program in Normal, IL? How'd that turn out?

My good friend, I should have been more clear. I was referencing Moser taking over at Loyola as he went there one year before Dan was hired and they entered the MVC soon thereafter. The other coaches were all hired during Dans time at ISU and have Inherited much more difficult situations than Dan and have turned them around and put their programs ahead of ISU.

I forgot to add Dana Ford to that list as well.

A little early on Dana. Maybe he'll be better. His time at TSU doesn't suggest grand improvement over time.

 

[Bird Friend]

• Wilkins . . . underwhelming considering the hype. Certainly not his dad.

• Jones was not on the team with Brown/Carmichael. Nor did he ever match the hype.

• Allen started B10 and had to move down. Was kicked off the football team, and eventually the basketball team. Was such a streaky player you couldn't count on him from game to game.

• Hill was Reeves without the range, who also shouldn't have been put in the PG position. And I say Reeves is a smarter player. Hill also wasn't a B10 player until his 5th year.

• Ekey was a role player. Chastain type. Also not a B10 player until he was a senior.

• Zeisloft played above his athleticism, and completely out of position. He was a smart kid who used his IQ and drive to make himself better and give himself a better opportunity.

• Blue, Clark, Cousin, and Upshaw . . . really?

No true PG killed the 2012-13 team. Even had Jank stayed, they wouldn't have been as good without Moore. The 2011-12 team stumbled into St. Louis, and then got hot. They were not that good.

So hear is your analysis just so I understand. The players were not that good.
Wilkins was underwhleming(not his dad)....Fair comparison to a guy that played 6 years in the NBA.
Jones never matched the hype.
Allen was a streaky player you couldn't count on...........still was talented enough that Minnesota wanted him
Hill had no range and wasn't as smart as a freshman........even though he was good enough to play at Purdue.
Ekey was a role player.......even though he started 23 games with U of I, that is considered a role player.
Zeisloft was not athletic.......but he was good enough to go play at Indiana
Zeke Upshaw (really?).......I guess you want more from a reserve than a guy that plays 2 years in the G league.

They were not a team that just stumbled into St. Louis and got hot. They were a young team that had to develop and learn how to play. The NIT sets the criteria a little higher than you described it.

The cupboard was full with Jackie C, Tree and Tyler Brown. Not to mention, Anthony Beane Jr was committed to the team. I think it is fair to say that most of those players regressed under Dan. The ones that left got better.

Be honest. Was the program in better shape when he took it over or where he has it?

My argument was that, in my opinion, the cupboard wasn't as strong as you seem to think. I was not and am not comparing this year with that team.

That team did stumble into St. Louis. The team lost 3 of last 4 Valley season games, only getting the 4-seed by squeaking one out against BU in the last game to barely stayed out of Thursday night play. They got hot in St. Louis and rode that to Stanford. And Nic Moore was a really big reason why.

And I stand by my comments on the others. I would hope that guys who are 5th year seniors from ISU could fit on BCS rosters (worked for Hawkins and McIntosh). As for Allen being recruited by Minny . . . Traves Wilson and Sead Odzic also went BCS before transferring to ISU . . . how'd they do for us? Sometimes even the big schools get it wrong.

 

[TheTruth]

The Redbirds don't have one player that could start for the Shockers right now, and that's just sad. The Shockers are trying to get to another final 4 while the Redbirds are trying to stay out of Thursday night (again), and that's just pathetic. This all comes down to leadership and Illinois State doesn't seem to be willing to fix or even address the problem, and that's just criminal.

 

[Birdfriend72]

Marshall vs. Muller first 7 seasons.

What’s funny is Marshall came into a much worse situation that Muller and improved. Muller came into a great situation and destroyed it.


Marshall
2007–08 Wichita State 11–20 4–14 9th
2008–09 Wichita State 17–17 8–10 T–5th CBI Second Round
2009–10 Wichita State 25–10 12–6 2nd NIT First Round
2010–11 Wichita State 29–8 14–4 2nd NIT Champion
2011–12 Wichita State 27–6 16–2 1st NCAA Division I Round of 64
2012–13 Wichita State 30–9 12–6 2nd NCAA Division I Final Four
2013–14 Wichita State 35–1 18–0 1st NCAA Division I Round of 32
2014–15 Wichita State 30–5 17–1 1st NCAA Division I Sweet 16

Muller
2012–13 Illinois State 18–15 8–10 6th
2013–14 Illinois State 18–16 9–9 5th CBI Semifinal
2014–15 Illinois State 22–13 11–7 T–3rd NIT Second Round
2015–16 Illinois State 18–14 12–6 T–2nd
2016–17 Illinois State 28–7 17–1 T–1st NIT Second Round
2017–18 Illinois State 18–15 10–8 T–3rd
2018–19 Illinois State 17–16 9–9 T–5th

Pre-Marshall 2006-2007 WSU 17-14 (8-10) . . . can’t say as I think the improvement was immediate, considering 2 years of worse records than Marshall inherited. And to say Dan immediately destroyed ISU is overly dramatic, especially considering Jank’ last year was a last-second bank shot from being a Thursday nite team.

Stats are important. Context is required.

Reading is important too. I said destroyed it. Didn't say immediately destroyed it.

And any argument that Muller is even in the same league as Marshall is insane.

Dan is not even in the same league as Moser, Jacobson, Lansing, and Brian Wardell! What makes anyone think he is even in the same world as Marshall?

Dan had some nice pieces to the team he inherited! Jackie Carmichael would be all-world on this team...along with Tyler Brown! Jon Wilkins was solid, and Indiana found a way to use Zeisloft...as well as Johnny Hill with Purdue! The difference is Dan has to butt heads with everyone! It feels like he isn’t happy unless there is turmoil! Unfortunately, Dan has been coddled and its always someone else fault!