vs Bradley (8-3) - Saturday 2/3/2024 - 1 pm - MVC Sports Network

[DWRedbird]

I throw out some of my thoughts:

• I don't think the divide on player talent is too far between us and Bradley, but the difference in style of play is way different. Bradley (and a lot of the teams that have beaten us) do a really good job of running an offense and playing off the ball. We focus a lot on ISOs, and playing outside of the 3pt line. I said it earlier in the year, and it still holds true, we don't look comfortable as a team inside the 3pt line. This makes us exceptionally easy to guard. Teams don't need to switch on us, and they aren't really getting tired. Teams that play like we do, where it is kind of just go out and ball, we can play against. Even if we improve the talent going into next year, if we don't change our style of play (the offensive scheme in particular) we likely won't look much different.
• I like things I've seen from JK and Chase so far, I think Pence is thrown off by the style of ball we play. That said, if you are expecting frosh players to be the best on the floor, no matter what they are ranked coming in, 9 out of 10 times you'll be disappointed.
• It was nice to see Mal get out of his head and hit some shots.
• If we ran an inside out offense a lot of the time Foster would eat the valley up down low.
• Crowd was nice to see, wish we could have won for them.
• I've heard the things folks have heard about Wardle being borderline abusive in practice. Some players respond to that, some really don't. I think Wardle is finding a groove with getting guys that do respond to it. He hasn't reached Gregg Marshall level where he is cursing out his assistant coaches for a mistake he made yet.

 

[ChiRedbirdfan]

Was saying the same thing about Pence. Bradley kept getting us to switch and taking advice of the mismatch. We had the mismatch with Pence and never once took advantage of it. Should have already been prepared for in practice. That really makes me question Pedon’s coaching ability.

did not see game as I was at uic/siu game. Did Pence mismatch happen many times? If so it is on coaching and players to take advantage …. Hopefully Pence is capable of posting up effectively? I have only witnessed him facing the basket. Disappointing indeed if that type of mismatch happened often without taking advantage of the mismatch. However Devil advocate says Bradley/duke deen/Wardell well prepared to immediately adjust as a 5’8” guard is an obvious post up target. Nevertheless it should be targeted as that opens up other Offensive options

 

[TBS_20]

Chase looked decent. He's slow but he's scrappy. Diving on floor for loose ball. If he gets his shot down he's going to be a monster. The Coke machine

 

[RedbirdSoxFan]

did not see game as I was at uic/siu game. Did Pence mismatch happen many times? If so it is on coaching and players to take advantage …. Hopefully Pence is capable of posting up effectively? I have only witnessed him facing the basket. Disappointing indeed if that type of mismatch happened often without taking advantage of the mismatch. However Devil advocate says Bradley/duke deen/Wardell well prepared to immediately adjust as a 5’8” guard is an obvious post up target. Nevertheless it should be targeted as that opens up other Offensive options

Not sure how many times, but I do recall noticing a few time Pence got matched up with Deen.

 

[Redbirdfan06]

I throw out some of my thoughts:

• I don't think the divide on player talent is too far between us and Bradley, but the difference in style of play is way different. Bradley (and a lot of the teams that have beaten us) do a really good job of running an offense and playing off the ball. We focus a lot on ISOs, and playing outside of the 3pt line. I said it earlier in the year, and it still holds true, we don't look comfortable as a team inside the 3pt line. This makes us exceptionally easy to guard. Teams don't need to switch on us, and they aren't really getting tired. Teams that play like we do, where it is kind of just go out and ball, we can play against. Even if we improve the talent going into next year, if we don't change our style of play (the offensive scheme in particular) we likely won't look much different.
• I like things I've seen from JK and Chase so far, I think Pence is thrown off by the style of ball we play. That said, if you are expecting frosh players to be the best on the floor, no matter what they are ranked coming in, 9 out of 10 times you'll be disappointed.
• It was nice to see Mal get out of his head and hit some shots.
• If we ran an inside out offense a lot of the time Foster would eat the valley up down low.
• Crowd was nice to see, wish we could have won for them.
• I've heard the things folks have heard about Wardle being borderline abusive in practice. Some players respond to that, some really don't. I think Wardle is finding a groove with getting guys that do respond to it. He hasn't reached Gregg Marshall level where he is cursing out his assistant coaches for a mistake he made yet.

I agree with most of your bullets other than the first one. Bradley’s top 4 players are head and shoulders better than anyone we have. You could maybe argue Foster, but there is probably a reason Pedon doesn’t want the entire offense run through him. I am interested in how Foster does against Indiana state because I don’t think either Bradley or Drake defended him like someone they needed to key in on.

Burford is fine, but nowhere near as good as Hickman or Dean. Lewis is so up and down and mostly been down in Valley play. And if we say Mal, then we are forgetting his past 10 plus games and the fact he had the majority of his points after the under 8 timeout with Bradley up 20.

Wardle might be a better coach than Pedon, but it’s much easier to look like a genius when your players move without the ball, they can defend help side , and their bigs can make a pass without having to put the ball on the floor. If Pedon has to spend practice time on that stuff, then there is a reason this team looks like they have no chance of beating Bradley anytime soon.

 

[Birdfriend72]

I agree with most of your bullets other than the first one. Bradley’s top 4 players are head and shoulders better than anyone we have. You could maybe argue Foster, but there is probably a reason Pedon doesn’t want the entire offense run through him. I am interested in how Foster does against Indiana state because I don’t think either Bradley or Drake defended him like someone they needed to key in on.

Burford is fine, but nowhere near as good as Hickman or Dean. Lewis is so up and down and mostly been down in Valley play. And if we say Mal, then we are forgetting his past 10 plus games and the fact he had the majority of his points after the under 8 timeout with Bradley up 20.

Wardle might be a better coach than Pedon, but it’s much easier to look like a genius when your players move without the ball, they can defend help side , and their bigs can make a pass without having to put the ball on the floor. If Pedon has to spend practice time on that stuff, then there is a reason this team looks like they have no chance of beating Bradley anytime soon.

Foster is ok- but his insistence on going left makes it easy to neutralize him. I am surprised he hasn't worked more on his right hand. That would make it much more difficult to defend him.

 

[DWRedbird]

I agree with most of your bullets other than the first one. Bradley’s top 4 players are head and shoulders better than anyone we have. You could maybe argue Foster, but there is probably a reason Pedon doesn’t want the entire offense run through him. I am interested in how Foster does against Indiana state because I don’t think either Bradley or Drake defended him like someone they needed to key in on.

Burford is fine, but nowhere near as good as Hickman or Dean. Lewis is so up and down and mostly been down in Valley play. And if we say Mal, then we are forgetting his past 10 plus games and the fact he had the majority of his points after the under 8 timeout with Bradley up 20.

Wardle might be a better coach than Pedon, but it’s much easier to look like a genius when your players move without the ball, they can defend help side , and their bigs can make a pass without having to put the ball on the floor. If Pedon has to spend practice time on that stuff, then there is a reason this team looks like they have no chance of beating Bradley anytime soon.

I would go the other way personally. You mention moving without the ball, our offense isn't designed for it. That's not on the players, and its not a bug its a feature. We run a zone/iso offense where guys are basically sent to a zone and that is their zone where they stay unless the ball moves into it. There is no off ball motion what so sever. It often means 4 out of the 5 defenders don't need to put in any work at all to play defense. You only need to cover the guy with the ball. Pedon isn't having to spend extra time teaching off ball movement because there is none, its not designed that way. It becomes most evident when our guys dribble into a double team and you watch the rest of the team just shuffle around in their zone and not come to the ball. But, overall there is little to no off ball motion, and we aren't making the defense work. Really the only people in a position to succeed with our offense in my opinion is the opposing teams defense.

In my opinion we could dump the whole roster bring in 13 new scholarship players and regardless of who we brought in, we will look similar next year. Hell, I think if you swapped Bradley's roster for ours straight up, they still likely beat us. The scoring difference might not be as large, but they still likely beat us.

 

[DaveBird10]

Saturday was rough, hate losing to Bradley but they are a darn good team. If Hickman doesn't get hurt they only have 2 or 3 losses on the year. A few things stick out with me about the Birds tho.
1. Kinziger needs to start. I think he's running the offense better then Banks is now and he's our best 3 point shooter on the roster. Kinziger and Burford are really small together in the backcourt but they are our best guards. Id start them together.
2. Coaches have to find a way for Walker and Foster to play together. Idk how but they do. They both play the 5 but those 2 need to play together.
3. We struggle on offense vs teams with length and we generally don't finish as well vs teams that have a lot of length.

 

[Hamdonger]

Wardle might be a better coach than Pedon, but it’s much easier to look like a genius when your players move without the ball, they can defend help side , and their bigs can make a pass without having to put the ball on the floor. If Pedon has to spend practice time on that stuff, then there is a reason this team looks like they have no chance of beating Bradley anytime soon.

It's hard to argue with Timmy's viewpoint because, Timmy is 100% credible, and his account is first-hand. For now I'm going to put that aside...as well as my ISU despises Bradley outlook.

The reason Wardle's players do all the things you mentioned is because HE COACHES A PROGRAM WHERE HE DEMANDS SUCH. IMO, since Wardle has been at Bradley, they are simply exhausting to play against. Whether they're winning or losing, you've got to mentally gear up to play them. I'm talking REALLY mentally gear up. They are very aggressive on both ends of the court, their efficiency is EXCELLENT, and mentally they never seem to be out of any game. I could go on and on but Wardle IS a better coach than Ryan. A big portion of that is Wardle has much much more experience running his own show and he knows to the T exactly what he wants to see on the court. I could be wrong but his players seem to embrace it and it reflects in their play.

Ryan still feels somewhat green to me. I like him, I root for him, and 100% want to see him succeed. Our basketball program has to internally DEMAND that EVERYONE gets better. Players AND coaches. I do believe with the freshman, if we can hang in there, we'll significantly turn a corner. However, imo, we STILL have zero identity. And that is a problem. And it has to be addressed.

We have zero gimmee games. I'm a bit worried about Wed night.

 

[Redbird222]

It's been about 48 hours since the Bradley game and I still in the dumpsters. It was a very disappointing showing by our team given the rivalry, attendance, return of alumni, and opportunity to secure a quality win on our home court.

Points scored in 2024

Bradley - 60 (L)
Murray - 61 (W)
Evansville - 54 (L)
Belmont - 77 (W)
Missouri St - 68 (W)
Drake - 56 (L)
Valpo - 50 (L)
Belmont - 60 (L)
SIU - 64 (L)
Drake - 71 (L)
Average 62.2

Pomeroy Ranking Offensive Eff (season)
297th

3 point shooting (season) NCAA Basketball Stats - NCAA BB Team Three Point % | TeamRankings.com
27.0% 354/362

The facts support our offense is not effective. I think there are several contributing factors

1. Very poor shooting team
2. Below average passing team ... we miss passes and often the passes are not where you would want to receive them. Finding an open player and passing below their waist is not a good pass.
3. With the exception of Burford, most of the guards lack the ability to penetrate effectively and consistently
4. Bigs cannot put up shots or make pass without dribbling (and dribbling) the ball. They also seemed to be bothered by taller teams that body up to them.
5. We are the WORSE screening team. Our guards don't get close enough to the screens and when they do the screener roles very quickly.
6. The lack of creativity and movement off the ball and on inbounds plays is mind boggling

I think 1 - 4 are on the players and the coaches will need to address through recruiting. 5 & 6 are on the coaches to me. They need to look in the mirror and ask themselves what they can do better to be more effective.

Our defense and rebounding has improved from last year and the stats support it. I think the biggest potential areas of improvement there is playing the ball screens better - avoiding easy layups and creating mismatches. We are also small and short at the guard positions. A little more length would help and they need to address that in the upcoming years.

There are glimmers of hope here and there but I think most would agree we cannot compete consistently at the level required to win the MVC regular season and tournament.

Let's get a win against UIC on Wednesday so I can focus on all the great things we are doing.

 

[Redbird222]

Ryan still feels somewhat green to me. I like him, I root for him, and 100% want to see him succeed. Our basketball program has to internally DEMAND that EVERYONE gets better. Players AND coaches. I do believe with the freshman, if we can hang in there, we'll significantly turn a corner. However, imo, we STILL have zero identity. And that is a problem. And it has to be addressed.

This and the coaches need to infuse more talent into the program.

 

[SlackBooDom]

A variety of thoughts that I will try not to be overly repetitive of what has been posted.

1. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If Brian Wardle were ISU's coach and had his exact resume there isn't a person on this board who wouldn't seek out his detractors and ardently defend him. As Humdinger stated, like Wardle or not his teams more often than not take on his persona and it clearly works. He is a better coach than Pedon. They've been solid to very good defensively since he got to Peoria and with the offense they've got now they'll be a top of the MVC team until Wardle leaves.

2. For those who attend practice and have access to the program, does Banks kick Kinziger's ass every day in practice? The overwhelming consensus on the board and from those I talk to at games is that JK should start. I'm at a loss for what the staff think Banks provides. He kills the offense, he doesn't make others better, he's a below average athlete, he's not a good shooter. I don't get this one.

3. We just played Bradley at home and never led and there are people on here who think the talent gap isn't that immense, which would mean the coaching gap IS that immense. It is one or the other. If you don't think the talent is different, then the coaching is. If you do think that the talent is a wide gap, that is the coaching staff's fault. All roads this year continue leading back to one thing - we have bad coaching. Whether it be the system we are running, how we substitute, the talent on the roster, in game adjustments, hiring assistants, or all the other issues it is a direct reflection of the head coach. I said last year that I didn't see anything meaningful to build upon. Can anyone point to anything we do this year better than last year?

4. There's two players on our roster and zero coaches on our staff that if they didn't return I would be disappointed. Kinziger and Walker. If you told me after the season we lost every player besides those two and had a brand new coaching staff I'm not sure I would be upset for more than 60 seconds. That's a problem.

 

[Redbird222]

Can anyone point to anything we do this year better than last year?

Rebounding is the only thing that sticks out to me.

 

[ISUalum19]

I hate losing, and hate losing to BU more than anyone else in the mvc. We are just not offensively talented. Just call it like it is. Our gameplans need to get creative to force mistakes and make other teams uncomfortable but im not sure we have the players to do that.

Its time to throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks. Or accept how things are going and accept 8th place in the valley if we're lucky.

 

[ChiRedbirdfan]

A variety of thoughts that I will try not to be overly repetitive of what has been posted.

1. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If Brian Wardle were ISU's coach and had his exact resume there isn't a person on this board who wouldn't seek out his detractors and ardently defend him. As Humdinger stated, like Wardle or not his teams more often than not take on his persona and it clearly works. He is a better coach than Pedon. They've been solid to very good defensively since he got to Peoria and with the offense they've got now they'll be a top of the MVC team until Wardle leaves.

2. For those who attend practice and have access to the program, does Banks kick Kinziger's ass every day in practice? The overwhelming consensus on the board and from those I talk to at games is that JK should start. I'm at a loss for what the staff think Banks provides. He kills the offense, he doesn't make others better, he's a below average athlete, he's not a good shooter. I don't get this one.

3. We just played Bradley at home and never led and there are people on here who think the talent gap isn't that immense, which would mean the coaching gap IS that immense. It is one or the other. If you don't think the talent is different, then the coaching is. If you do think that the talent is a wide gap, that is the coaching staff's fault. All roads this year continue leading back to one thing - we have bad coaching. Whether it be the system we are running, how we substitute, the talent on the roster, in game adjustments, hiring assistants, or all the other issues it is a direct reflection of the head coach. I said last year that I didn't see anything meaningful to build upon. Can anyone point to anything we do this year better than last year?

4. There's two players on our roster and zero coaches on our staff that if they didn't return I would be disappointed. Kinziger and Walker. If you told me after the season we lost every player besides those two and had a brand new coaching staff I'm not sure I would be upset for more than 60 seconds. That's a problem.

i like Pedon in many ways but beginning to believe he is too nice to succeed as evidenced by players disrespecting him during games (as reported here by some who saw players talking back to him).... as they say in the coaching world....the road to hell is paved with nice guys

 

[Redbirdfan76]

222 has the some of the same thoughts that I do.
Next time we have BU (later this month in Peoria), I am suggesting the following defensively.
Don’t follow Hannah ( or the Serbian or Kyle Thomas) out when they set perimeter screens. Darius Burford can stay with Deen one on one, but he either needs to get skinny and go over the screen( hopefully Foster is talking and letting Buford know it’s coming) or go behind Hannah and pick Deen up as quickly as he can. This takes away Hannah “rolling to the bucket” like he did so easily the entire game. I get that Deen will adjust and take a shot right off the screen, but I would rather take my chances on that then a sure thing Hannah dunk.

Secondly we were getting beat regularly on back door cuts. Bradley’s offense begins with two corner players who move diagonal after the high ball screen and then cut towards the basket, especially the weakside cutter. Knowing this, you need to defend by forcing the backcutter to go wider than he wants to, thus disrupting timing. This is hard to execute, but needs to be drilled regularly to be effective.
Way too many back cut layups on Saturday.

Offensively I would like to see a high post / low post offense with Chase at the high post. He will need to shoot effectively from that area to open up the low post for Foster, but I believe Chase is very capable in this aspect, and I don’t think anyone in the league can stop Myles one on one from getting a shot off.
I agree with many on this board that we are somewhat stagnant on offense. In a high post / low post offense, our wings need to move towards the basket to get their defenders on their heels and then cut back to be able to receive a pass from the high post. Or, movement between the point and wing to rub off each other can result in one of them being open.

Sorry for rambling…. just the thoughts of an old, burned out coach.

 

[Hamdonger]

i like Pedon in many ways but beginning to believe he is too nice to succeed as evidenced by players disrespecting him during games (as reported here by some who saw players talking back to him).... as they say in the coaching world....the road to hell is paved with nice guys

I did bring up Kendall one time, but that was out of frustration on Kendall's part and very out of character for him. Very out of character. As far as home games, I see poor body language at times from players (usually the same ones game in/game out) but I really haven't seen a bunch of what you're saying. I have not been on the road, though, so I can't speak to that.

I don't believe our lack of more success is because Ryan is too nice. If anything I've seen him firm up a little bit. (Albeit it ain't Wardle!) Loyl2u said it better imo than anyone and it still seems to apply:

Loyl2u said:
I didn’t see a lack of effort before he pulled everybody- it really feels like the system just isn’t putting players in a position to succeed

 

[TBS_20]

I did bring up Kendall one time, but that was out of frustration on Kendall's part and very out of character for him. Very out of character. As far as home games, I see poor body language at times from players (usually the same ones game in/game out) but I really haven't seen a bunch of what you're saying. I have not been on the road, though, so I can't speak to that.

I don't believe our lack of more success is because Ryan is too nice. If anything I've seen him firm up a little bit. (Albeit it ain't Wardle!) Loyl2u said it better imo than anyone and it still seems to apply:

Loyl2u said:
I didn’t see a lack of effort before he pulled everybody- it really feels like the system just isn’t putting players in a position to succeed

Can't succeed if you're shooting bricks regardless of position

 

[Reggie Redbird]

3. We just played Bradley at home and never led and there are people on here who think the talent gap isn't that immense, which would mean the coaching gap IS that immense. It is one or the other. If you don't think the talent is different, then the coaching is. If you do think that the talent is a wide gap, that is the coaching staff's fault. All roads this year continue leading back to one thing - we have bad coaching. Whether it be the system we are running, how we substitute, the talent on the roster, in game adjustments, hiring assistants, or all the other issues it is a direct reflection of the head coach. I said last year that I didn't see anything meaningful to build upon. Can anyone point to anything we do this year better than last year?

This is weird to say, but “win.” We were 11-21 overall and 6-14 in the MVC. Right now, we’re 11-12 and 5-7 in the MVC. As long as we don’t go worse than 1-7 the rest of the way, we will win more than we did last year. Ultimately, that’s a goal for this year. Then next year, win more than we did this year.

Whether that’s because of a “down MVC” or whatever, the fact still remains that we are winning at a much better pace than last year with most of our wins over the teams with us in the middle.

The offense is maddening to me, and I agree with a lot of points on this board. However, we’re winning more.

 

[Dmills]

This is weird to say, but “win.” We were 11-21 overall and 6-14 in the MVC. Right now, we’re 11-12 and 5-7 in the MVC. As long as we don’t go worse than 1-7 the rest of the way, we will win more than we did last year. Ultimately, that’s a goal for this year. Then next year, win more than we did this year.

Whether that’s because of a “down MVC” or whatever, the fact still remains that we are winning at a much better pace than last year with most of our wins over the teams with us in the middle.

The offense is maddening to me, and I agree with a lot of points on this board. However, we’re winning more.

Agreed, sometimes it doesn't feel like much progress has been made. Games against the top 3 will remind us we are a long ways away from being the top dog. That being said, the last time we had at least 14 wins was 5 years ago during the 18-19 season. I think it is still possible that we could reach 17 wins similar to that team (with wins vs UIC, Evansville, UNI or SIU, Missouri State, and Valpo + Thursday night win). It is unlikely that we win 6 of the 7 remaining "winnable games" but certainly possible. If that happens, it would be a major step in the right direction, leaving us at 17-16 and 10-10. We have played particularly poor against the top 3 and the bottom 2 + Evansville. I don't know why that is the case but we have actually more than held our own against the middle of the pack.