MVC Coaching Hot Seat

[CaliRdBrd]

You said "What fans here don’t understand is winning brings in money."

Who is saying that? All most are saying is that ISU is likely not making a change because of the buyout. But we don't even know that for sure.
For all we know, the new A.D. wants to give Muller a chance in a non-covid year. I have no idea, but again from what I'm seeing on this board, most wish we could move on from this coach.

So again: what part of "we need a change but apparently ISU admin doesn't want to shell out the bucks for a buyout" don't you understand?

Semantics, I guess.

Let me lay it out this way...

1. Many fans on this site seem to think that ISU cannot afford to pay the buyout.
2. I’m simply suggesting that it’s shortsighted to not buy him out as the continued degradation of this program will result in even more apathy.
3. Increased apathy results in lower tickets sales.
4. Lower ticket sales will result in less revenue from merchandise, less revenue from concessions, etc.
5. A new coach, with an up-tempo, winning program will increase fan interest.
6. Increased fan interest will mean increased ticket sales, merch, concessions, etc.
7. A winning program, that contends in March Madness regularly, brings in even more money via the NCAA.
8. Continued success likely means more games on TV.
9. More games on TV means even more moolah.

You see where this is going?

in addition, if we bring a young, exciting, hard-working, dynamic, (yet possibly unproven, at this level), talented coach who can also recruit his ass off, we may be able to offer said coach a lower salary, but one that’s incentive-laden. Let’s say, for simplicity sake...$300,000 per year...

If you compare that to Muller’s salary, the buyout, with a new coach at $300,000/year makes even more long term sense (assuming the program is more successful, and let’s face it, how can it not be at this point?)...

Letting Muller go now = $1.5 million
Keeping Muller until his contract is over = $1.8 million
Letting Muller go now, and bringing in a new coach would cost $1.5 million (buyout) + $900,000 (new coaches salary - three years at $300k) = $2.4 million (or $800,000/year).

Now this is pure speculation, but I have an awfully hard time believing that a university of this size cannot afford $1.5 million up front (or $800,00/year for three years). If they can’t then our problems are much larger than a basketball program circling the abyss.

This is exactly why ISU needs to come up with the $1.5 million we all know they have. I don’t care if they need to search the AD’s office couch for loose change to get us there, this needs to be done. Now.

Does that help/make sense ? If not, let me know when the next time you’re in SoCal so I can diagram it all on a whiteboard; preferably over a few beers.

 

[DoubleDeuce]

preferably over a few beers.

You had me at, "beers."

 

[Bird Friend]

What fans here don’t understand is winning brings in money. Consistent winning brings in LOTS of money. The more time we waste waiting for the prodigal son to find his rhythm (he won’t), the deeper the hole we dig ourselves and more money we lose out on (by not winning)
If you don’t buy him out now, you run the risk of burying this program even deeper into irrelevance (if that’s even possible at this point).
Get him the $1.5 and move on already!!!

So Muller's contract runs thru 2024, if I'm reading the comments in the Fire Muller thread. Doesn't that add another $600k to the buyout? So, we're looking at $1.8M to buy him out, plus whatever we'd need to hire a new coach.

I'm not arguing that Dan needs to stay. As I've said many times, I have had and still have reservations about Dan as a HC (which many of you continue to ignore). I think Dan is too cerebral. He expects others to be able to grasp concepts that he can't explain to them very well, and becomes frustrated when it doesn't happen. This leads him to resort to discipline as a means of clarification, which doesn't clarify anything. With Yak and Oliver, he had two guys who could explain what Dan wanted. I think Ward might have been the same. Dan's frustration during games seems to me be one of "I've told the guys what to do, I just don't understand why they're not doing it and I can't get through too them."

I'm also not arguing that winning won't bring in revenue, and I understand the concept that you have to spend money to make money. But ISU is a public institution that isn't benefited by a huge athletic budget or endowment that can fund a change like this. If there are ways to fund this type of move, I'm all for buying out Dan. I've yet to see anyone on here suggest a viable method of doing so. It's easy to spend someone else's money when you don't have to explain where the money's coming from.

Quit explaining why it needs to happen. Show us how this can happen.

 

[Birdfriend72]

Two of the last three years were pre-Covid and we didn't necessarily light it up then either. The direction of the program is akin to a dumpster fire being pushed over a cliff. There should be nothing else to see here. Dan can't get it done. Sorry, but his record doesn't lie. He made a hell of a lot of $$$ this last year for all of 5.5 D1 wins.

Covid didn’t prevent Drake from improving. Just a lame excuse.

 

[Birdfriend72]

Semantics, I guess.

Let me lay it out this way...

1. Many fans on this site seem to think that ISU cannot afford to pay the buyout.
2. I’m simply suggesting that it’s shortsighted to not buy him out as the continued degradation of this program will result in even more apathy.
3. Increased apathy results in lower tickets sales.
4. Lower ticket sales will result in less revenue from merchandise, less revenue from concessions, etc.
5. A new coach, with an up-tempo, winning program will increase fan interest.
6. Increased fan interest will mean increased ticket sales, merch, concessions, etc.
7. A winning program, that contends in March Madness regularly, brings in even more money via the NCAA.
8. Continued success likely means more games on TV.
9. More games on TV means even more moolah.

You see where this is going?

in addition, if we bring a young, exciting, hard-working, dynamic, (yet possibly unproven, at this level), talented coach who can also recruit his ass off, we may be able to offer said coach a lower salary, but one that’s incentive-laden. Let’s say, for simplicity sake...$300,000 per year...

If you compare that to Muller’s salary, the buyout, with a new coach at $300,000/year makes even more long term sense (assuming the program is more successful, and let’s face it, how can it not be at this point?)...

Letting Muller go now = $1.5 million
Keeping Muller until his contract is over = $1.8 million
Letting Muller go now, and bringing in a new coach would cost $1.5 million (buyout) + $900,000 (new coaches salary - three years at $300k) = $2.4 million (or $800,000/year).

Now this is pure speculation, but I have an awfully hard time believing that a university of this size cannot afford $1.5 million up front (or $800,00/year for three years). If they can’t then our problems are much larger than a basketball program circling the abyss.

This is exactly why ISU needs to come up with the $1.5 million we all know they have. I don’t care if they need to search the AD’s office couch for loose change to get us there, this needs to be done. Now.

Does that help/make sense ? If not, let me know when the next time you’re in SoCal so I can diagram it all on a whiteboard; preferably over a few beers.

For futures references if they can’t afford the buyout- they have no business giving the contract!

 

[Birdfriend72]

So Muller's contract runs thru 2024, if I'm reading the comments in the Fire Muller thread. Doesn't that add another $600k to the buyout? So, we're looking at $1.8M to buy him out, plus whatever we'd need to hire a new coach.

I'm not arguing that Dan needs to stay. As I've said many times, I have had and still have reservations about Dan as a HC (which many of you continue to ignore). I think Dan is too cerebral. He expects others to be able to grasp concepts that he can't explain to them very well, and becomes frustrated when it doesn't happen. This leads him to resort to discipline as a means of clarification, which doesn't clarify anything. With Yak and Oliver, he had two guys who could explain what Dan wanted. I think Ward might have been the same. Dan's frustration during games seems to me be one of "I've told the guys what to do, I just don't understand why they're not doing it and I can't get through too them."

I'm also not arguing that winning won't bring in revenue, and I understand the concept that you have to spend money to make money. But ISU is a public institution that isn't benefited by a huge athletic budget or endowment that can fund a change like this. If there are ways to fund this type of move, I'm all for buying out Dan. I've yet to see anyone on here suggest a viable method of doing so. It's easy to spend someone else's money when you don't have to explain where the money's coming from.

Quit explaining why it needs to happen. Show us how this can happen.

That would be:

21-22 $600,000
22-23 $600,000
23-24 $600,000

The way I read the contract Muller would be a 1.5 mil buyout...but I’m not an attorney either. I do know that there is no reason an AD can’t sit down and speak with Muller regarding a buyout. If Muller can’t see the writing on the wall- so be it! The University shouldn’t care what’s in the best interest of Muller. I don’t think he will be broke at the end of the day.

 

[CaliRdBrd]

Semantics, I guess.

Let me lay it out this way...

1. Many fans on this site seem to think that ISU cannot afford to pay the buyout.
2. I’m simply suggesting that it’s shortsighted to not buy him out as the continued degradation of this program will result in even more apathy.
3. Increased apathy results in lower tickets sales.
4. Lower ticket sales will result in less revenue from merchandise, less revenue from concessions, etc.
5. A new coach, with an up-tempo, winning program will increase fan interest.
6. Increased fan interest will mean increased ticket sales, merch, concessions, etc.
7. A winning program, that contends in March Madness regularly, brings in even more money via the NCAA.
8. Continued success likely means more games on TV.
9. More games on TV means even more moolah.

You see where this is going?

in addition, if we bring a young, exciting, hard-working, dynamic, (yet possibly unproven, at this level), talented coach who can also recruit his ass off, we may be able to offer said coach a lower salary, but one that’s incentive-laden. Let’s say, for simplicity sake...$300,000 per year...

If you compare that to Muller’s salary, the buyout, with a new coach at $300,000/year makes even more long term sense (assuming the program is more successful, and let’s face it, how can it not be at this point?)...

Letting Muller go now = $1.5 million
Keeping Muller until his contract is over = $1.8 million
Letting Muller go now, and bringing in a new coach would cost $1.5 million (buyout) + $900,000 (new coaches salary - three years at $300k) = $2.4 million (or $800,000/year).

Now this is pure speculation, but I have an awfully hard time believing that a university of this size cannot afford $1.5 million up front (or $800,00/year for three years). If they can’t then our problems are much larger than a basketball program circling the abyss.

This is exactly why ISU needs to come up with the $1.5 million we all know they have. I don’t care if they need to search the AD’s office couch for loose change to get us there, this needs to be done. Now.

Does that help/make sense ? If not, let me know when the next time you’re in SoCal so I can diagram it all on a whiteboard; preferably over a few beers.

I forgot to add that the plan I proposed above (buying out Muller at $1.5 and hiring a new coach at $300,000 for 3 years) only adds $200,000/year to the bottom line over a three year period, right?
I know there are some brilliant accountants, with degrees from ISU (not in that group), but correct me if I’m wrong..,,

 

[Bird Friend]

I forgot to add that the plan I proposed above (buying out Muller at $1.5 and hiring a new coach at $300,000 for 3 years) only adds $200,000/year to the bottom line over a three year period, right?
I know there are some brilliant accountants, with degrees from ISU (not in that group), but correct me if I’m wrong..,,

Saying a university should be able to come up with the money isn't explaining how. It's punting. In case you haven't heard--seeing as you're in CA I'll accept that is very possible--Illinois' public universities are in serious financial trouble. ALL of them. ISU has been able to tread water. U of I is hanging on. ISU is the only state school that has resisted forcing furloughs on staff and professors. Any excess $$ at ISU has been going toward keeping the academic side functioning.

 

[Bird Friend]

That would be:

21-22 $600,000
22-23 $600,000
23-24 $600,000

The way I read the contract Muller would be a 1.5 mil buyout...but I’m not an attorney either. I do know that there is no reason an AD can’t sit down and speak with Muller regarding a buyout. If Muller can’t see the writing on the wall- so be it! The University shouldn’t care what’s in the best interest of Muller. I don’t think he will be broke at the end of the day.

But do we want ISU to be broke? Honest question. If the choice is firing Dan or forcing staff and professors to accept unpaid furloughs, what do we do?

 

[CaliRdBrd]

But do we want ISU to be broke? Honest question. If the choice is firing Dan or forcing staff and professors to accept unpaid furloughs, what do we do?

Easily.Keep the professors.

We can’t lose sight of what’s truly important, and what a university is all about...education.

That said, the model I proposed only adds $200,000/year to the bottom line, and if the teams takes off in a positive direction, it’s all gravy thereafter...

 

[Manchester Matt]

Indiana State second-team All-MVC forward Jake LaRavia is transferring. I think I found a Valley program is worse shape than ours.

 

[ricohill]

I don’t know how the contract works if they have to pay the $1.5 million all at once or can spread it out over the length of the contract. However, when your operating budget for year as a University is 487.3 million. This money is a blip on the radar.

 

[DWRedbird]

View attachment 457I don’t know how the contract works if they have to pay the $1.5 million all at once or can spread it out over the length of the contract. However, when your operating budget for year as a University is 487.3 million. This money is a blip on the radar.

Unless I'm mistaken they have to pay the 1.5 million all at once, unless Muller is willing to negotiate a deferment of some kind or a settlement of some kind.

That said, for us on the outside looking in, it looks like it is an insignificant amount. But when the money is already all accounted for, 1.5 is a hard number to come up with. Is it impossible, no, but it isn't likely to be found just laying around.

 

[ricohill]

Unless I'm mistaken they have to pay the 1.5 million all at once, unless Muller is willing to negotiate a deferment of some kind or a settlement of some kind.

That said, for us on the outside looking in, it looks like it is an insignificant amount. But when the money is already all accounted for, 1.5 is a hard number to come up with. Is it impossible, no, but it isn't likely to be found just laying around.

The thing is it’s only going to be a million and they have a year to find it. I can’t see the AD saying his job is secure and then turn around and fire him. This is college athletics so flip flops happen all the time.

The only hope is Muller realizes he is screwing over ISU and moves on. However, that seems very unlikely.

 

[jwa123]

The thing is it’s only going to be a million and they have a year to find it. I can’t see the AD saying his job is secure and then turn around and fire him. This is college athletics so flip flops happen all the time.

The only hope is Muller realizes he is screwing over ISU and moves on. However, that seems very unlikely.

How long are we going to continue having this discussion? It ain’t happening this year brother. As the Chinese proverb goes, “when you are riding a dead horse, for heaven’s sake, dismount.”

Keep bringing it up over and over and over isn’t going to change a damn thing.

 

[jamminjamarsmiley]

Sadly, ISU isn’t going to terminate one of the worst coaches in school history.

the only way I see it happening is if they have any reason to fire with cause, meaning Muller does something like Gregg Marshall or Stallings and can avoid the buyout. Anyone know if Muller has punched any players?

 

[ricohill]

How long are we going to continue having this discussion? It ain’t happening this year brother. As the Chinese proverb goes, “when you are riding a dead horse, for heaven’s sake, dismount.”

Keep bringing it up over and over and over isn’t going to change a damn thing.

That was my point in the very first paragraph

 

[JHBird]

Sadly, ISU isn’t going to terminate one of the worst coaches in school history.

the only way I see it happening is if they have any reason to fire with cause, meaning Muller does something like Gregg Marshall or Stallings and can avoid the buyout. Anyone know if Muller has punched any players?

You got it! Let's set up a honey trap!!

DIRTY DEEDS, DONE DIRT CHEAP!

 

[Birdfriend72]

But do we want ISU to be broke? Honest question. If the choice is firing Dan or forcing staff and professors to accept unpaid furloughs, what do we do?

It sounds like you like to make assumptions assuming ISU doesn't have a rainy day fund. It sounds like you many like to make excuses and assume ISU has no money.

 

[DWRedbird]

It sounds like you like to make assumptions assuming ISU doesn't have a rainy day fund. It sounds like you many like to make excuses and assume ISU has no money.

They may, but I don't think it is set aside to blow it all on firing a coach. I'm sure it also may have taken a hit when they had to pay out something like 21 million in refunds when COVID hit last year and everyone went home.

The thing is it’s only going to be a million and they have a year to find it. I can’t see the AD saying his job is secure and then turn around and fire him. This is college athletics so flip flops happen all the time.

The only hope is Muller realizes he is screwing over ISU and moves on. However, that seems very unlikely.

I don't see Muller stepping down, especially based on what I know of him, he still thinks he can turn it around.

As far as salary goes. If they fire him before next season ends they will owe him 1.5 million unless it is for cause. If they fire him after next season it will be 1 million, which is slightly better.