MULLER GONE

[CaliRdBrd]

I would say the new HC will have about 3 -5 years to get us dancing. He definitely won't get 10 years. With the way the portal works now, the expectations will be high. Drake flipped it in 2 years with 2 different HCs. I assume this fan base will expect the same.

Good question…how long of a leash does a coach need to put his imprint on a program. 5 years seems about right.
To jump in a coach for poor performance after their first 2-3 years seems unfair.

 

[Total Red]

Good question…how long of a leash does a coach need to put his imprint on a program. 5 years seems about right.
To jump in a coach for poor performance after their first 2-3 years seems unfair.

That is a good question. How long should you give a coach? Did you know that Porter Moser was a Head Coach in the MVC and the Horizon for 10 years (4 with Illinois State and 6 with Loyola) and he had a losing record in the conference every year until he finally broke out in his 11th season?

We canned him after 4 seasons and we let him know that we don't tolerate losing around here. We sure showed him.

 

[RedbirdFanatic32]

Good question…how long of a leash does a coach need to put his imprint on a program. 5 years seems about right.
To jump in a coach for poor performance after their first 2-3 years seems unfair.

Good to know. Hope to see you jump on the ones who criticize the coach for the next 3 years, and hold them accountable for the snowflakes they are.

 

[BirdGrad2011]

That is a good question. How long should you give a coach? Did you know that Porter Moser was a Head Coach in the MVC and the Horizon for 10 years (4 with Illinois State and 6 with Loyola) and he had a losing record in the conference every year until he finally broke out in his 11th season?

We canned him after 4 seasons and we let him know that we don't tolerate losing around here. We sure showed him.

5 years. Don’t even need a NCAA tournament in that window but need marked improvement. You can’t come in and lose for 4 straight years and get a free pass. But I think 2 without comment. Year 3 might should probably earliest a warm seat should even be whispered.

 

[jamminjamarsmiley]

That is a good question. How long should you give a coach? Did you know that Porter Moser was a Head Coach in the MVC and the Horizon for 10 years (4 with Illinois State and 6 with Loyola) and he had a losing record in the conference every year until he finally broke out in his 11th season?

We canned him after 4 seasons and we let him know that we don't tolerate losing around here. We sure showed him.

So you think 10 years is appropriate?

Moser seems like quite the extreme case and if I recall he took over Loyola down in the dumps and slowly had them improving. Milton Doyle committing there was sort of a turning point for the program from what I can remember.

 

[ISU86]

5 years. Don’t even need a NCAA tournament in that window but need marked improvement. You can’t come in and lose for 4 straight years and get a free pass. But I think 2 without comment. Year 3 might should probably earliest a warm seat should even be whispered.

Hmmm ... that reads similar to the first five years from the coach the program just jettisoned. How ironic that it all depends on which side of the pendulum you are viewing from.

 

[BirdGrad2011]

Hmmm ... that reads similar to the first five years from the coach the program just jettisoned. How ironic that it all depends on which side of the pendulum you are viewing from.

Extending Dan after 2016-17 was the right move. The contract they gave him was not. His agent fleeced ISU.

 

[IHateWSU]

So you think 10 years is appropriate?

Moser seems like quite the extreme case and if I recall he took over Loyola down in the dumps and slowly had them improving. Milton Doyle committing there was sort of a turning point for the program from what I can remember.

The turning point for Loyola was when Ingram hit the Buzzer beater in their first round NCAA game. If he misses that shot, Loyola would still be in MVC and Porter would still be at Loyola.

 

[Birdman85]

This day and age if you can't get it done in three years your done. With the transfer process you can reshape your roster quickly. Also with all the players available coaching has become even more important. Players are going to come and go. You have to have a way to win consistently while dealing with turnover.

 

[Total Red]

So you think 10 years is appropriate?

Moser seems like quite the extreme case and if I recall he took over Loyola down in the dumps and slowly had them improving. Milton Doyle committing there was sort of a turning point for the program from what I can remember.

I don't know if there is an appropriate number of years. It's hard to tell and each case is different. I do think most people react too strongly to 2-3 good years or 2-3 bad ones. Sometimes it's less than that. I think AD Lyons overreacted to the 28-7 season by extending Dan's contract out 7 years.
Progress can be slow and uneven. Sometimes you move backwards before you move forward and patience is required. Moser posted a 24-13 record in year 3 at Loyola before falling back to 15-17. You say Milton Doyle committing was a turning point. That may well be true. I think Moser, Muller and most coaches are only a player or two away from having a really good team. Sometimes that means convincing a player to stay another year and he improves, sometimes that means not losing a player to injury, sometimes that means winning a recruiting battle for a key recruit. I think we're too quick to label somebody a great coach or a horrible coach. Dan is not a 28-7 coach but he isn't a 7-18 coach either. His record over the long haul is 167-150. That isn't good enough, so he's gone but at times he had the program close to where we wanted it to be.

 

[DWRedbird]

Extending Dan after 2016-17 was the right move. The contract they gave him was not. His agent fleeced ISU.

I agree with this. Lyons gave him a sweet heart deal because they were buddies and it ended up hamstringing us.

This day and age if you can't get it done in three years your done. With the transfer process you can reshape your roster quickly. Also with all the players available coaching has become even more important. Players are going to come and go. You have to have a way to win consistently while dealing with turnover.

For the most part you are right, though I'd increase the number to 4 years. Give a coach 4 years and if the team isn't trending up and isn't highly competitive then it is time to move on.

 

[Aggie]

I don't know if there is an appropriate number of years. It's hard to tell and each case is different. I do think most people react too strongly to 2-3 good years or 2-3 bad ones. Sometimes it's less than that. I think AD Lyons overreacted to the 28-7 season by extending Dan's contract out 7 years.
Progress can be slow and uneven. Sometimes you move backwards before you move forward and patience is required. Moser posted a 24-13 record in year 3 at Loyola before falling back to 15-17. You say Milton Doyle committing was a turning point. That may well be true. I think Moser, Muller and most coaches are only a player or two away from having a really good team. Sometimes that means convincing a player to stay another year and he improves, sometimes that means not losing a player to injury, sometimes that means winning a recruiting battle for a key recruit. I think we're too quick to label somebody a great coach or a horrible coach. Dan is not a 28-7 coach but he isn't a 7-18 coach either. His record over the long haul is 167-150. That isn't good enough, so he's gone but at times he had the program close to where we wanted it to be.

NCAA tournament on a somewhat consistent basis and NIT in off years needs to be where the program gets to that is not a goal but it should be a reality

 

[TBS_20]

Do you think UIC will be at the top of the MVC anytime soon? I bet they give him 3, maybe 4 years then they will move on if he's not. He's going to need to win the Valley to move onto "green pastures".

I would guess his clock completely restarts like mosers did

 

[gobirds85]

Good to know. Hope to see you jump on the ones who criticize the coach for the next 3 years, and hold them accountable for the snowflakes they are.

Three years is far shorter than ten years and the only snowflakes would be the ones who don't acknowledge the truth. The truth being that muller and lyons steered the program down the rabbit hole the last four years.

 

[CaliRdBrd]

Good to know. Hope to see you jump on the ones who criticize the coach for the next 3 years, and hold them accountable for the snowflakes they are.

I get it, you’re still hurt over some innocuous comment I may have made 3-4 years ago.
Apologies

 

[SgtHulka]

I get it, you’re still hurt over some innocuous comment I may have made 3-4 years ago.
Apologies

Its the most popular malady here

 

[Birdfriend72]

So you think 10 years is appropriate?

Moser seems like quite the extreme case and if I recall he took over Loyola down in the dumps and slowly had them improving. Milton Doyle committing there was sort of a turning point for the program from what I can remember.

The problem for Muller is he can’t recruit the high school level. All the complaining about the transfer portal around here- but the transfer route has been Mullers BFF. If not for Strong, Chatman, Freeman and McChesney he may not have won a game.

 

[RedbirdFanatic32]

I get it, you’re still hurt over some innocuous comment I may have made 3-4 years ago.
Apologies

Accepted

 

[RedbirdFanatic32]

Three years is far shorter than ten years and the only snowflakes would be the ones who don't acknowledge the truth. The truth being that muller and lyons steered the program down the rabbit hole the last four years.

I agree that 3 is shorter than 10. I agree that Muller and Lyons were failing. I agree that by some standards articulated here, Muller was accomplishing what was desired over the course of his first 5 years, and then fell off dramatically. Just stating that I hope that people aren't so reactionary in future posts. It doesn't serve anyone. Was the program a dumpster fire of biblical proportions and an embarrassment to any and all who have attended ISU, comparable to UIC but at least they have a good location? Or is it a diamond in the rough that has fallen on hard times the past half decade. I'm in the latter group.

 

[dpdoughbird06]

I don't know if there is an appropriate number of years. It's hard to tell and each case is different. I do think most people react too strongly to 2-3 good years or 2-3 bad ones. Sometimes it's less than that. I think AD Lyons overreacted to the 28-7 season by extending Dan's contract out 7 years.
Progress can be slow and uneven. Sometimes you move backwards before you move forward and patience is required. Moser posted a 24-13 record in year 3 at Loyola before falling back to 15-17. You say Milton Doyle committing was a turning point. That may well be true. I think Moser, Muller and most coaches are only a player or two away from having a really good team. Sometimes that means convincing a player to stay another year and he improves, sometimes that means not losing a player to injury, sometimes that means winning a recruiting battle for a key recruit. I think we're too quick to label somebody a great coach or a horrible coach. Dan is not a 28-7 coach but he isn't a 7-18 coach either. His record over the long haul is 167-150. That isn't good enough, so he's gone but at times he had the program close to where we wanted it to be.

It was a rolling five-year contract that Lyons renewed in ‘18 and ‘19, thereby extending it to seven. We made it to Arch Madness championship in the former, and were a 9-9 Thursday team only after a pair of ridiculous halfcourt heaves beat us in the latter.

The contract itself was the issue, and it was not unique to Muller; I believe Jank operated on a similar deal - and likely with a similar minimal buyout (if any) when he left.