Fire Brock Spack

[jwa123]

Oh NO! Does all of this mean we can’t march right up to the door step of MAC headquarters and tell them we are joining their conference? Like it or not.

Perish the thought of FBS when FCS is such a struggle?

I truly don’t want to give up the dream of unrealistic expectations .

 

[Reggie1857]

Yes football funding, focus and facilities have changed. But they've changed for other schools as well. It's an arms race. As Illinois State has improved so have others. On a relative basis things haven't changed much. When Brock Spack began in 2009, Hancock had not been improved. The old version was pathetic by D-I standards. In 2009, N. Iowa had the UNI-Dome, Youngstown St. had Stambaugh Stadium and Missouri St. had Plaster Stadium. Have you been to those stadiums?

TR is right, Illinois State administrations have historically been abysmal at running football and times really haven't changed that much. The university has wasted so much potential with football/ athletics in general.. It's such a shame because none of this needed to happen.

 

[Total Red]

ChiRedbirdfan - A very thoughtful post with a hopeful outlook. You discussed the potential growth of Redbird Football and the benefits that could accrue from that.

It drives increased awareness of the university that drives increased applicants that drives higher admission standards that drives higher rankings that circles back around to driver more applicants ..etc. all of that can help drive long term enrollment growth which should make the university more affordable and its community more prosperous and desirable.

I try to read most of the public comments from the Illinois State University administration and from what I have heard we are already right sized. We've been holding around 20,000 for some time and that is the enrollment that is desired. Growing the university sounds great, but then you have to add faculty, staff and infrastructure. With the upfront investment costs, you may not really gain that much, and you leave yourself vulnerable to maintenance costs if enrollment should take a downturn. The population of the state of Illinois has not been increasing. Increasing capacity could be risky and we already turn down qualified applicants. If we took more, we could jeopardize one or more of the state directionals. Those are the schools that have enrollment issues, not Illinois State.

Like many "go FBS" posts you didn't mention a conference, but the MAC is the most likely. How much would the MAC increase the naming rights value of Hancock Stadium?

Like many "go FBS" posts you say -

again need strong leadership to initiate the process.

We had strong leadership with Pres Bowman/ AD Zenger and they both urged Redbird Nation to embrace a future that included FBS membership. A big key to that progression would be private donations towards the Hancock renovation. Despite the call to arms private donations only covered a small fraction of the costs and Hancock 2.0 was largely completed with student fees.

Forward to more modern times and an energetic AD Kyle Brennan raised the fallen banner and led the crusade to build an Indoor Practice Facility. The IPF was supposed to be 100% privately funded. Early on there was talk of multi-million dollar pledges that would allow us to achieve that goal. When the smoke vanished much of the money pledged turned out to be an illusion. The IPF did not receive the private funding desired. When projects are not completed with private dollars it almost guarantees a long lag between improvements.

Time and again I've heard of the untapped potential of Redbird Athletics with comments like-

REALLY REALLY good and there is an opportunity for meaningful long term growth that we would all be proud of and what to participate in.

Where we all the proud participants when Hancock was renovated? Where were the proud participants when the IPF was being built? Where the frick is this vast untapped potential I've been hearing about for almost 50 years. I've written this same post about 50 times, and I'll make it 51 when I'll post a thread related to all of this that I will call the " The Big 6."

ISU/RAD should top prioritize a DEDICATED state of the art FOOTBALL ONLY locker room and weight training facility. State of the art meaning as respects to what is state of the art for a group 5 fbs program.

Sounds great - something we agree on. SHOW ME THE MONEY.

 

[MadBird]

ChiRedbirdfan - A very thoughtful post with a hopeful outlook. You discussed the potential growth of Redbird Football and the benefits that could accrue from that.


I try to read most of the public comments from the Illinois State University administration and from what I have heard we are already right sized. We've been holding around 20,000 for some time and that is the enrollment that is desired. Growing the university sounds great, but then you have to add faculty, staff and infrastructure. With the upfront investment costs, you may not really gain that much, and you leave yourself vulnerable to maintenance costs if enrollment should take a downturn. The population of the state of Illinois has not been increasing. Increasing capacity could be risky and we already turn down qualified applicants. If we took more, we could jeopardize one or more of the state directionals. Those are the schools that have enrollment issues, not Illinois State.

Like many "go FBS" posts you didn't mention a conference, but the MAC is the most likely. How much would the MAC increase the naming rights value of Hancock Stadium?

Like many "go FBS" posts you say -

We had strong leadership with Pres Bowman/ AD Zenger and they both urged Redbird Nation to embrace a future that included FBS membership. A big key to that progression would be private donations towards the Hancock renovation. Despite the call to arms private donations only covered a small fraction of the costs and Hancock 2.0 was largely completed with student fees.

Forward to more modern times and an energetic AD Kyle Brennan raised the fallen banner and led the crusade to build an Indoor Practice Facility. The IPF was supposed to be 100% privately funded. Early on there was talk of multi-million dollar pledges that would allow us to achieve that goal. When the smoke vanished much of the money pledged turned out to be an illusion. The IPF did not receive the private funding desired. When projects are not completed with private dollars it almost guarantees a long lag between improvements.

Time and again I've heard of the untapped potential of Redbird Athletics with comments like-

Where we all the proud participants when Hancock was renovated? Where were the proud participants when the IPF was being built? Where the frick is this vast untapped potential I've been hearing about for almost 50 years. I've written this same post about 50 times, and I'll make it 51 when I'll post a thread related to all of this that I will call the " The Big 6."



Sounds great - something we agree on. SHOW ME THE MONEY.

Amen, brother.

Repeating your sentiment, we hear all the time about how ISU hasn't "reached its potential", and then "leadership" and the Athletic Department etc. are blamed for not squeezing the dough out of the willing alums just waiting to donate. Right? When I worked in Springfield, one of the legislators famously said about a legislative leader - "like any good leader, he follows his troops". I added the corallary - "to have good leadership you need good followership." If the masses wanted FBS, the way there is voting with your money. Sadly, in my opinion. But after all these years, I sense we're about where we belong. Could we play in the MAC? Sure. Would it move the revenue side much? Only via TV dollars, not attendance. And those dollars would go to the added scholarships we'd need, including the one's for women's parity. So not much net.

 

[fourthandshort]

kidding mostly .. ok partly .. well .. mostly, I hope

 

[fourthandshort]

Nice post TR! I appreciate the time and perspective. Waiting at an airport so I too have some time. I agree 100 percent with many of your comments and thoughts. I guess where we begin to the differ is where we go from here. I believe it is a time for a football hc change which is secondary to the university side doing a deep dive analysis of what type of return the university side receives from the ISU athletic department. So yea maybe waiting until the bigger picture is figured out before a head coaching change makes sense.

Onto the bigger picture..Please note that I think it is important to keep a clear distinction between ILLINOIS STATE UNIVERSITY (Isu) and the illinois state REDBIRD ATHLETIC DEPARTMENT (RAD) for purposes of this discussion as we need to remember that RAD should be serving the interest of ISU and their students/alums. The university side benefits most from athletics when their name is in the news…even being in the news as a loser in a sporting event far outweighs no sporting news coverage at all. Obviously being in the news as a winner has a huge impact on the university side. There is plenty of research and articles that discuss the benefit of university athletic departments as respect to benefiting the university side. Nearly all of the benefit is derived from the value of the advertising/name recognition when the athletic department’s teams (esp football) are in the news. It drives increased awareness of the university that drives increased applicants that drives higher admission standards that drives higher rankings that circles back around to driver more applicants ..etc. all of that can help drive long term enrollment growth which should make the university more affordable and its community more prosperous and desirable. It drives increased donations to both the university side and the athletic department side. The name recognition drives interest in naming rights for facilities. Hancock field has basically no value for naming rights as the only people that see the place are the fans that attend and peeps that drive by the stadium. ISU needs press from RAD and currently there is very little press for many reasons. We need meaningful tv exposure and we get so little.

All that said I believe the foundation of Isu and RAD is REALLY REALLY good and there is an opportunity for meaningful long term growth that we would all be proud of and want to participate in. But you are right we need to invest in and/OR better manage our RAD strategy/allocation of resources. We can not keep the current RAD strategy as RAD is falling way short of what they have the ability to return to ISU in terms of exposure. There are so many moving long term and short term intertwined pieces that we could go on and on about what is needed. These include fixing our split conf affiliation, gauging student/alumni interest, optimizing the right mix of sports offered (currently have 19), maximizing revenue, determine facility needs, how do we fund,…etc

I do believe that ISU, with the new FBS requirements, is actually a lot closer to fbs than we have ever been (that said with zero knowledge of fbs conf interest in Isu) as it appears we are basically there with number of sports offered / scholarships offered. But big changes would be needed and it all starts with strong interested leadership doing the deep dive analysis vs continuing to purely administer what we have….which appears to be what has happened post Bowan/plane crash and looks like is continuing from our current interim a.d., although that is understandable. As an aside please remember i am talking long term changes and I get that some of these items could take many many years to accomplish and again need strong leadership to initiate the process.

Last couple of comments…you mentioned facility needs and so did another poster, who specifically football weight facilities. I believe our football stadium is more than respectable for fcs/or a start to fbs (if we can get there) and we now have the bubble which is more than adequate for practice. However for recruiting and long term football success I firmly believe ISU/RAD should top prioritize a DEDICATED state of the art FOOTBALL ONLY locker room and weight training facility. State of the art meaning as respects to what is state of the art for a group 5 fbs program. The stadium image is nice for fans but the players live year around in the weight room and locker room and that is a huge recruiting edge. The football players/team have by far the most significant upside to ISU so get them a dedicated damn locker room/weight training so we can recruit/compete. It is shocking that we do not have a separate weight facility for the football program (even fcs) yet in the last twenty years someone decided to spend money to upgrade the baseball facility (which is likely not cheap to annually maintain). I am not against baseball but having a solid baseball program will basically do nothing for ISU as college baseball gets virtually little coverage unless you are a top 10-15 program (even then likely 95% of sports fans have zero interest in college baseball). I guess my view (and I know others may have a different view) is if students/alums basically dont follow baseball and it basically does not have the ability to get media attention for ISU what’s the point of RAD spending money on that type of athletic program? Spend the money where you at least have a shot at get something back. Someone please correct me if you think I am missing something.

On another note I thought it was interesting that Bowlsby is taking the interim UNI ad job to help analyze their situation and see how he can help. Certainly a nice way to go back to your roots and try to give back. He is seriously a big time college/conference athletic administer and I wish Isu could be as fortunate to have someone of his ilk take a peak at ISU/RAD strategy.

Enough.. I really like Isu athletics and believe they have so much more to accomplish. The soon approaching decade (post 2014 fcs football season) of RAD performance and lack of direction is really frustrating to me. Hence the long rant.

LETS GO!!

damn .. I need to get on your level ... which aint gonna happen. Nice post !!!

 

[Reggie Redbird]

snakebit the last 8 seasons then?!?!

Just to call out, in 2016, we beat NW, beat 2 top-12 teams, and made the playoffs. We were ranked #5 at one point, although the MVFC had 3 top-6 teams that year and we lost 3 games by a FG.

2019, we made the QF, had 10 wins, and finished ranked #7. We did have unfortunate histories, but still played some amazing FB and won some tough games.

With the right QB, whether on our roster or from outside, and key players returning, I feel this can be a playoff team. We brought in several offensive linemen that I had high aspirations for. Mostly, they did not pan out. I’m hoping that is a position we can bolster.

 

[Bird Friend]

Should probably be noted that our season is over . . . and Brock hasn’t been fired. Take that as you will, but for me it seems to mean Spack will be back.

 

[ChiRedbirdfan]

Amen, brother.

Repeating your sentiment, we hear all the time about how ISU hasn't "reached its potential", and then "leadership" and the Athletic Department etc. are blamed for not squeezing the dough out of the willing alums just waiting to donate. Right? When I worked in Springfield, one of the legislators famously said about a legislative leader - "like any good leader, he follows his troops". I added the corallary - "to have good leadership you need good followership." If the masses wanted FBS, the way there is voting with your money. Sadly, in my opinion. But after all these years, I sense we're about where we belong. Could we play in the MAC? Sure. Would it move the revenue side much? Only via TV dollars, not attendance. And those dollars would go to the added scholarships we'd need, including the one's for women's parity. So not much net.

Madbird, i can understand your closing perspective and that is your fair opinion. however ..i do not know if referencing anything a state legislator said (x1000 since it is from Illinois) is a meaningful reference or supports any position . that one actually gave me a good chuckle!

yes good leaders should be able to follow at times but i am not quite certain how that reference applies to a 501c3 that may want to raise funds for a specific purpose. peeps generally need a good reason to donate and it all starts with a good plan and invested leadership articulating that long term plan. Beyond that it takes many more steps and a lot of dedication and perseverence. i can't say i buy into the notion that ISU should be waiting for donors to voluntarily step up with the dollars first before they consider doing anything (including going fbs). That is not how fundraising works.

agree 100% attendance is not the driver of going fbs as it is all about getting the university exposure. something we get very little of with fcs. so if we could go fbs and break even on expenses it would basically be a gauranteed a win for ISU as fbs teams get much more press than fcs. without looking for it i've seen niu's name a few times recently in the sporting news as all bowls are being discussed. every bit of name recgoniction is a positive. look at how much james madison's name has been in the press this year...that far outweighs anything i have witnessed by any fcs team's success.

lastly, my statement that it takes strong leadership to move, towards what i believe is meaningful change, is not blaming towards the past. rather i am looking forward and stating what i feel is needed in the future for the specific topic. if you feel otherwise that is merely classic listening against what i am trying to convey as that is not where i am coming from.

Madbird, you and i appear to have very different preferences and desires for the future of ISU. that said i view you as a good alum and respect your opinion

 

[StLRedbird]

Every time we have this FBS discussion I recollect the hopeful days of Bowman/Zenger. We had the athletic and academic admins in unison about a desire to move ISU to FBS. Zenger said the Redbird Nation would have to demand it.

Our first opportunity was an epic fail. We needed to raise $4M+ in private money to finish off the horseshoe in Phase I of the future Hancock Stadium. We didn't get within shouting distance of the half of that number we'd need to incorporate it into the build planning for Phase I. Eventual cost overruns eliminated the three sections of the horseshoe that were planned and we have today's Hancock 2.0.

It was at this point I resigned myself to ISU@FCS, because I couldn't write a check that mattered. I did make the point back then that ISU's athletic budget fit in nicely with what was typical in the MAC, but I agreed with the consensus that moving from the Valley was too risky. Who knows where ISU would be now if we'd made the move then. We'd have certainly been involved in some interesting re-alignment conversations. Water under the bridge now? Or will we be looking back 10 yrs from now with regret? Over my pay grade, that's for sure.

BTW, we had a second opportunity to "demand FBS" when we tried to fund the IPF. The bottom line for me is that the MFVC is a damn good football conference regardless of labels. We're putting players into the NFL and playing against other teams that are doing the same.

 

[fourthandshort]

Every time we have this FBS discussion I recollect the hopeful days of Bowman/Zenger. We had the athletic and academic admins in unison about a desire to move ISU to FBS. Zenger said the Redbird Nation would have to demand it.

Our first opportunity was an epic fail. We needed to raise $4M+ in private money to finish off the horseshoe in Phase I of the future Hancock Stadium. We didn't get within shouting distance of the half of that number we'd need to incorporate it into the build planning for Phase I. Eventual cost overruns eliminated the three sections of the horseshoe that were planned and we have today's Hancock 2.0.

It was at this point I resigned myself to ISU@FCS, because I couldn't write a check that mattered. I did make the point back then that ISU's athletic budget fit in nicely with what was typical in the MAC, but I agreed with the consensus that moving from the Valley was too risky. Who knows where ISU would be now if we'd made the move then. We'd have certainly been involved in some interesting re-alignment conversations. Water under the bridge now? Or will we be looking back 10 yrs from now with regret? Over my pay grade, that's for sure.

BTW, we had a second opportunity to "demand FBS" when we tried to fund the IPF. The bottom line for me is that the MFVC is a damn good football conference regardless of labels. We're putting players into the NFL and playing against other teams that are doing the same.

This ..... We just don't have the fan base to to go G5 and stay interested playing teams we hardly know. And P5 is never going to happen in this new universe. Given risk of failure, I'll take MVFC certainty over G5 uncertainty ... competition is just as good for most part, and it is the best football in FCS by far. We should have had 4 in the quarters this year. I like playing tough schedules all day long. We played with UNI, YSU, and UND this season, even though some here said we weren't even in their league. Outsiders said EIU was top 25 ... not me, I don't believe that .. but others thought so.

Here's the offseason goals for what should be a playoff run next year:

1. make sure Rittenhouse is ready to be THE guy, or find one in Portal .. so far, I like Rittenhouses chances .. he looks like he could be a better version of SIUs Baker.

2. make sure we have a real #2 who can come in and use most of the playbook like this year turned out for 1st time in Spack era

3. shore up placekicking, so it doesn't lose use games ... UND and EIU

4. try to break even in Portal and keep OC Peterson another couple seasons if we can

5. take full advantage of new IPF .. practice, recruiting, OTAs, etc

Then watch THIS current roster have a playoff run next season ... we are primed for a run as it stands right now. I hope the players on this roster can see this right now. Screw the portal !! Stay here and make a playoff run next season in the best FCS conference by far.

 

[Sanantoniobird]

ChiRedbirdfan - A very thoughtful post with a hopeful outlook. You discussed the potential growth of Redbird Football and the benefits that could accrue from that.


I try to read most of the public comments from the Illinois State University administration and from what I have heard we are already right sized. We've been holding around 20,000 for some time and that is the enrollment that is desired. Growing the university sounds great, but then you have to add faculty, staff and infrastructure. With the upfront investment costs, you may not really gain that much, and you leave yourself vulnerable to maintenance costs if enrollment should take a downturn. The population of the state of Illinois has not been increasing. Increasing capacity could be risky and we already turn down qualified applicants. If we took more, we could jeopardize one or more of the state directionals. Those are the schools that have enrollment issues, not Illinois State.

Like many "go FBS" posts you didn't mention a conference, but the MAC is the most likely. How much would the MAC increase the naming rights value of Hancock Stadium?

Like many "go FBS" posts you say -

We had strong leadership with Pres Bowman/ AD Zenger and they both urged Redbird Nation to embrace a future that included FBS membership. A big key to that progression would be private donations towards the Hancock renovation. Despite the call to arms private donations only covered a small fraction of the costs and Hancock 2.0 was largely completed with student fees.

Forward to more modern times and an energetic AD Kyle Brennan raised the fallen banner and led the crusade to build an Indoor Practice Facility. The IPF was supposed to be 100% privately funded. Early on there was talk of multi-million dollar pledges that would allow us to achieve that goal. When the smoke vanished much of the money pledged turned out to be an illusion. The IPF did not receive the private funding desired. When projects are not completed with private dollars it almost guarantees a long lag between improvements.

Time and again I've heard of the untapped potential of Redbird Athletics with comments like-

Where we all the proud participants when Hancock was renovated? Where were the proud participants when the IPF was being built? Where the frick is this vast untapped potential I've been hearing about for almost 50 years. I've written this same post about 50 times, and I'll make it 51 when I'll post a thread related to all of this that I will call the " The Big 6."



Sounds great - something we agree on. SHOW ME THE MONEY.

TR, I just wanted to address only one point in your post (agnostic of going FBS): Purdue has raised their enrollment every year since 2013, AND have also frozen tuition. I'd think you'd be surprised how affordable a name school like Purdue is, as it is easily competitive to ISU's tuition. They do mention that their increase has been helped by out of state students, as well (to your point of Illinois not growing). My only point is, it can be done and it doesn't have to be done to the detriment of students paying more.

 

[Sanantoniobird]

Also, we need a better coach. Prove me wrong.

 

[TBS_20]

Also, we need a better coach. Prove me wrong.

They will try. They will say he has been good in the past even though 7 of the last 8 years have been mediocre at best. Then theyll ramble on about he will get better prospects with the practice facility completely ignoring he won't be here for them because he's retiring anyway.

 

[ISUBird]

Also, we need a better coach. Prove me wrong.

I agree. After this upcoming season I hope that the AD talks with Spack that they will move on from him at the end of his contract and if he ends up retiring that they would like to keep him around in some sort of indirect capacity.

 

[TBS_20]

Meanwhile, there is an amazing offensive coordinator who is about to win his second straight Natty as the play caller. But, let's pass him up so Brock can finish out the last two years . Makes no sense. Oh, and theyll tell you it's only because he has an old team. We have an old coach

 

[Sanantoniobird]

Meanwhile, there is an amazing offensive coordinator who is about to win his second straight Natty as the play caller. But, let's pass him up so Brock can finish out the last two years . Makes no sense. Oh, and theyll tell you it's only because he has an old team. We have an old coach

Could you imagine? He'd turn us down just based on the disparity of our investment in football vs his current situation.

 

[TBS_20]

Could you imagine? He'd turn us down just based on the disparity of our investment in football vs his current situation.

A 31-year-old with P5 aspirations and a track record of success is not passing up and MVFC job to stay OC.

 

[Total Red]

TR, I just wanted to address only one point in your post (agnostic of going FBS): Purdue has raised their enrollment every year since 2013, AND have also frozen tuition. I'd think you'd be surprised how affordable a name school like Purdue is, as it is easily competitive to ISU's tuition. They do mention that their increase has been helped by out of state students, as well (to your point of Illinois not growing). My only point is, it can be done and it doesn't have to be done to the detriment of students paying more.

I'm not an expert on enrollment but our administration, our experts, have been sending signals that they like the enrollment where it is - rightsized. Part of that may be due to the fact that the population of Indiana is growing, and it is not growing in Illinois, so different needs for different situations. Also, when you consider the costs and risks of upfront expansion expenses like increased infrastructure, faculty and staff, it pays to consider how large of a safety net you have at your disposal. Illinois State University has an endowment of over 200 million. Purdue has an endowment of 3.5 billion.
I don't want to make it sound like Illinois State is completely content to just sit still with the status quo because that is not the case. There will be a new College of Engineering soon and the Redbirds will be competing with Purdue and the Univ of Ill. for students in that major. I would expect at least a minor uptick in enrollment related to the new major along with growing fields like Cybersecurity and Nursing.
That may be the plan. Rather than just hope for increased applications due to a higher profile athletic dept., they may be pursuing targeted increases in specific areas of interest.

 

[Sanantoniobird]

A 31-year-old with P5 aspirations and a track record of success is not passing up and MVFC job to stay OC.

I'd like to think I'm being facetious...but facilities-wise, we make improvements like someone has got one foot out the door. Which is why we get the coaches we get. (not all have been bad, mind you).