Elgin on MVC Scheduling

[SoCalRedbird]

3 against peer high level mid-majors or low level power 5. Teams that could potentially be tournament teams. Need 3 games against Belmont's, Lipsombs, Furman, BYU, Nevada, SDSU, Penn State, Missouri, Georgia, Vandy, etc....

You'd think the high major MM conferences would work together. If they did, they might be able to position their best teams for at-large contention each year.

But why don't they?

The closest we had to these conferences working together was Bracketbusters and the MVC/MWC challenge. Sure, the MWC moved on, but why didn't we seek out an equivalent conference as a replacement?

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[DWRedbird]

I agree on several points. Dan has always said he doesn't like buy games and wants home and homes. That is nice and dandy, but very seldom is a power school going to do that. Yes - I know the ole miss story... However - What does it hurt to go play at Kentucky, Kansas, Michigan St etc? You may get blown out, but you take a nice paycheck home, and your players get to say they got to play at one of those schools. If I was a recruit, and you told me we would go play Kentucky next year, I would find that exciting. Dan has played at Kentucky and Louisville (dont think Louisville was his call though). I would prefer he do more of that.

Yes- stop playing Quincy or Lindenwood. Those games do absolutely nothing for the program.

Dan has scheduled buy games @kentucky and @Louisville. Be upset at Dan for other things but Dan does schedule really good non-conference teams.

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I hate this argument. He’s tricked people into believing he’s scheduled really well. Our non-conference schedules are better than Jank (low bar), but far from great. His non-conference schedule in 17 cost us an at-large bid because we only played 2 top 100 teams in non-conference.

He schedules well and isnt tricking anyone. The issue is we arent beating the good teams we are scheduling and the Valley is trending backwards.

I would prefer not to have a random throw away game mid year against a D3/D2 school and replace it with a buy game from a P5, but I'm not mad at the schedule. We just need to actually execute, that's where our problem lies.

 

[Bird Friend]

I agree on several points. Dan has always said he doesn't like buy games and wants home and homes. That is nice and dandy, but very seldom is a power school going to do that. Yes - I know the ole miss story... However - What does it hurt to go play at Kentucky, Kansas, Michigan St etc? You may get blown out, but you take a nice paycheck home, and your players get to say they got to play at one of those schools. If I was a recruit, and you told me we would go play Kentucky next year, I would find that exciting. Dan has played at Kentucky and Louisville (dont think Louisville was his call though). I would prefer he do more of that.

Yes- stop playing Quincy or Lindenwood. Those games do absolutely nothing for the program.

Dan has scheduled buy games @kentucky and @Louisville. Be upset at Dan for other things but Dan does schedule really good non-conference teams.

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I hate this argument. He’s tricked people into believing he’s scheduled really well. Our non-conference schedules are better than Jank (low bar), but far from great. His non-conference schedule in 17 cost us an at-large bid because we only played 2 top 100 teams in non-conference.

Nope. Nonconf schedule hasn’t cost us a bid. Losing games we shouldn’t did that. Additionally, teams don’t always live up to their pre-season billing, so games that look really good pre-season don’t always look so good post-season. See 2018/19 Birds for case in point.

 

[HT59]

Dan has scheduled buy games @kentucky and @Louisville. Be upset at Dan for other things but Dan does schedule really good non-conference teams.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

I hate this argument. He’s tricked people into believing he’s scheduled really well. Our non-conference schedules are better than Jank (low bar), but far from great. His non-conference schedule in 17 cost us an at-large bid because we only played 2 top 100 teams in non-conference.

He schedules well and isnt tricking anyone. The issue is we arent beating the good teams we are scheduling and the Valley is trending backwards.
:text-+1:
I would prefer not to have a random throw away game mid year against a D3/D2 school and replace it with a buy game from a P5, but I'm not mad at the schedule. We just need to actually execute, that's where our problem lies.

 

[CaliRdBrd]

Play anyone , anywhere, without expectation of a home game in return. Nobody that wants to see this program take the next step should give a shit about 99% of the non-con teams we play.

 

[ISU86]

Play anyone , anywhere, without expectation of a home game in return. Nobody that wants to see this program take the next step should give a shit about 99% of the non-con teams we play.

That's a good model. Reads like Chicago State. Call us the Normal Barnstormers. Shutdown Redbird Arena until the second semester.

 

[Reggie Redbird]

1.) Our athletic department relies on MBB revenue - from season ticket sales and WSF “donations” from those ticket sales. They need to fill a certain number of games in addition to conference games to charge more for these tickets. Chicago State on the other hand makes more for taking their bus tours of the Midwest playing from South Bend to Bloomington, IN to Normal to Peoria.

2.). I would rather buy EIU, WIU, SEMO, SIU-E, IUPUI, IPFW, etc than play a D2, but those teams do come cheaper. It also didn’t add a bad RPI/SOS team at the time.

3.) Try working out a deal with P5 teams to combine FB, MBB, and even WBB. Ex. has Robin been gone long enough to where she’d play ISU? Play Mizzou in each of the 3 sports. Same with Iowa, Iowa State, Indiana, Wisconsin, and even Michigan in MBB and WBB if JB throws us a solid for Yak and Haynes.

 

[ISU86]

https://www.tribstar.com/sports/local_college_sports/isu_sports/elgin-scheduling-continues-to-be-a-moving-target-for-mvc/article_601d70af-1d0e-5321-a88a-c57d58925151.html

When talking about further expansion....yikes.

"There are downsides in my opinion. You lose the round robin. If you look at the Power Five conferences, they lose that family atmosphere. Not that any of our coaches in the league look at their opponents as family, but that's the truth of the nature of our league, that we almost have a family atmosphere of everyone pulling together," Elgin said. "Imagine in your mind's eye, the larger conferences out there and they don't seem to have that same feel. The larger you get, the less that culture is likely to occur."

Rico cherry picking what he wants to isolate.

"There has been fan and media sentiment for the league to expand its footprint and the depth of quality. Murray State, a finalist for MVC inclusion in 2017, did nothing to dampen that enthusiasm with its 28-5 season that saw the Racers advance to the second round of the NCAA Tournament.

Elgin said that each time the league was in a position where it had to add a member, it considered going past its current 10-team alignment. But Elgin said expansion is only viable if two members can be identified.

"I think it has to be an even number. I don't think 11 [schools] is an answer because then you get weird variance in schedule and sequence of games, how many games you play in a week compared to the opponents you're playing that week," Elgin said. "I think if we felt we could take two member institutions that could lift men's and women's basketball — and our other programs, but men's and women's basketball being the priority — I think we would aggressively pursue expansion."

Remember it is the presidents who ultimately decide who to take and how many.

I do not necessarily prefer men's AND women's basketball dictating direction, as only one of them moves the needle both financially and in visibility.

 

[Redbird60451]

1.) Our athletic department relies on MBB revenue - from season ticket sales and WSF “donations” from those ticket sales. They need to fill a certain number of games in addition to conference games to charge more for these tickets. Chicago State on the other hand makes more for taking their bus tours of the Midwest playing from South Bend to Bloomington, IN to Normal to Peoria.

2.). I would rather buy EIU, WIU, SEMO, SIU-E, IUPUI, IPFW, etc than play a D2, but those teams do come cheaper. It also didn’t add a bad RPI/SOS team at the time.

3.) Try working out a deal with P5 teams to combine FB, MBB, and even WBB. Ex. has Robin been gone long enough to where she’d play ISU? Play Mizzou in each of the 3 sports. Same with Iowa, Iowa State, Indiana, Wisconsin, and even Michigan in MBB and WBB if JB throws us a solid for Yak and Haynes.

So I disagree with #1. Yes it does rely on the MBB revenue, but would the team likely not gain more revenue from playing an away game at a big time school, and then maybe get us on live TV (and not on some internet channel). Which is a free 2 hr ad for our university. I know we'd all like to see a big university come to ISU, but if I'm the other university, why would I want to come to normal? Is the venue packed? Are the fans crazy? Does the stadium have some historic value? Is the game going to be on ESPN/CBS Sports/FOX Sports? I know we as fans want games at home, but with the way attendance is going, maybe we should get more guaranteed money games. Because your WSF donation won't change, just the amount of the season tickets will because there's less games. Just easy math 5500 fans at $25/seat is $137,500. So if I'm offered $250,00 (just guessing), would it not gain more revenue to play away?

I don't disagree on point #2. I understand the practice game against a D2, but once the season starts, if we can't find buy in game, or you want to schedule something after the team goes and plays in a tournament, then yes it should be EIU/WIU/SIU-E/UIC/NIU/CSU. I would go as far to limit it to IN-STATE schools, so that we can keep the money in the state and when we ask for educational funding we can point as us doing good in our own hood by playing another school in our own state (remember we play 6 games vs in state opponents already). And we likely would have to agree to a return game, so maybe a 2 for 1. Be damned the NET/RPI/ect... Keep the money in state because the deck is already stacked against us no matter who's in Springfield.

In theory #3 sounds good. But still the Big 10/Big 12/ect... have no reason to help us get any better. Why would it help their brand playing us in football or basketball? We are a bad loss in both, if we some how manage to win. And we are probably asking for too much money, so we are a bad loss in the pocket books too.

 

[birdlife]

to me, this is Elgin painting the picture that this is exactly where he planned to be with the MVC in 2019, like it or not. i'm not sure many commissioners would openly say they have not accomplished what they wanted to in their time in that position.

 

[isuquinndog]

You can't just count tickets for what a home games means to the department revenue. There are concessions and I'd imagine [mention]dpdoughbird06[/mention] can weigh in, but he'd probably not want to pay what he pays now to advertise in RA if there are going to be less than 10 home games there a season.

 

[ricohill]

Not any thought on it either way, but in 2017 we brought in all sports (assuming most of this is Men's Basketball and Football for ticket sales):

$1,916,439 - in ticket sales
$1,603,750 - in corporate sponsorship, advertising, and licensing.

Total of $3,520,189

Also, I could be wrong, but WSF money can only go towards paying for scholarships? So I would assume ticket sales, concession, and sponsorship money is important because you can allocated it any way you would like.

 

[Redbird60451]

You can't just count tickets for what a home games means to the department revenue. There are concessions and I'd imagine @dpdoughbird06 can weigh in, but he'd probably not want to pay what he pays now to advertise in RA if there are going to be less than 10 home games there a season.

I'm just thinking maybe instead of 3700 people at Lindewood (probably many of them already know and have had dpdough). His advertising was wasted. And our revenue could have been increased by playing a buy in game elsewhere (or even not playing at all). I would also think that concessions are a wash when there's less then 4500 people, based on paying overhead costs and waste at the end of the night. I would not be opposed to lowering that rate to advertise either if they truly broke it down on a per game basis, but then you'd also have to warrant the cost by guaranteeing a certain number of fans at the games (I'm thinking Lindewood would not make that minimum guarantee at 37% capacity)
I'm just lobbying for playing a buy in game elsewhere that might get us much needed TV exposure, instead of the Lindewoods or Lewis's of the world, which even if we win, doesn't advance the 'brand'. Even a loss @ Tulane on CBS Sports Network at 11 am on a Saturday morning advances the brand more then win vs Lindewood @home, just based on playing a team that plays other notable teams and probably has to be on network TV a certain number of times based on the leagues contract. We don't have to get into exact numbers, because your point is very valid. I'm just coming from the angle that I think games like Lindewood actually hurt the brand since it is just a home game just to have a home game.

 

[isuquinndog]

I understand. I don't think ISU should go the Tx Southern route and not play a single home game till conference season.

 

[CaliRdBrd]

Play anyone , anywhere, without expectation of a home game in return. Nobody that wants to see this program take the next step should give a shit about 99% of the non-con teams we play.

That's a good model. Reads like Chicago State. Call us the Normal Barnstormers. Shutdown Redbird Arena until the second semester.

Worked for Gonzaga, and look at them now.

Of course, we can continue down the unrealistic path of demanding home and home with Dukes and the like.

You want to be better play? Play anyone, anywhere. Someone else mentioned it, but the added bonus comes when showing a potential recruit a schedule that includes televised road games against Wisconsin, Michigan State, Kentucky etc.

Or we just scheduling semi-decent mid majors in a home and home. You know, the exact kind of games no one cares to see...

 

[CaliRdBrd]

I understand. I don't think ISU should go the Tx Southern route and not play a single home game till conference season.

I do.

Unlike TexSo, chances are we win a few. Then we’re on our way...

Honestly, what have we got to lose?

 

[Adunk33]

Muller is going to continue to try to get these home and homes with top level MM. Recent examples: Belmont, Murray State, VCU, FGCU, BYU, and UCF recently. In some of these instances, the other team just wasn't as good as they projected to be OR ISU lost. I do think ISU should be more willing to be bought, at least twice per year. Muller says, "we don't need to." Which may be fiscally true, but I am with those who say all of the exposure, name recognition, and $$$ that comes with it, kind of makes it a no brainer. ISU is in a weird position when, no they haven't won many of those bigger games, but they have been close, which could scare some teams away from buying ISU. They can look at the recent buy games like TCU, Kentucky, Louisville, or Northwestern. We won at NW, should have had Louisville and TCU, and lost the UK game at the free throw line where I believe they shot almost 50 free throws and we lost by 12. I don't see major issues with our schedule. I don't like the MTE Virgin Island Tournament for next season. No names that "wow" in the field.

As for the MVC. The "family" thing is whatever. I get it but I'm with you that changes need to be made. We need to add in Murray State and Belmont. I don't care if you don't have a round-robin. Going to 20 games would also make non-con scheduling easier, with 2 less games to schedule. Adding two more teams to the league would also make the league more money, specifically at Arch Madness. Thursday and Friday would both be a full days of basketball.

 

[Redbird Alum 2004]

Muller is going to continue to try to get these home and homes with top level MM. Recent examples: Belmont, Murray State, VCU, FGCU, BYU, and UCF recently. In some of these instances, the other team just wasn't as good as they projected to be OR ISU lost. I do think ISU should be more willing to be bought, at least twice per year. Muller says, "we don't need to." Which may be fiscally true, but I am with those who say all of the exposure, name recognition, and $$$ that comes with it, kind of makes it a no brainer. ISU is in a weird position when, no they haven't won many of those bigger games, but they have been close, which could scare some teams away from buying ISU. They can look at the recent buy games like TCU, Kentucky, Louisville, or Northwestern. We won at NW, should have had Louisville and TCU, and lost the UK game at the free throw line where I believe they shot almost 50 free throws and we lost by 12. I don't see major issues with our schedule. I don't like the MTE Virgin Island Tournament for next season. No names that "wow" in the field.

As for the MVC. The "family" thing is whatever. I get it but I'm with you that changes need to be made. We need to add in Murray State and Belmont. I don't care if you don't have a round-robin. Going to 20 games would also make non-con scheduling easier, with 2 less games to schedule. Adding two more teams to the league would also make the league more money, specifically at Arch Madness. Thursday and Friday would both be a full days of basketball.

This. I would have loved a better MTE myself but hoping that actually leads to a buy game. As far as expanding with Murray and Belmont... Yes please! Then expand the conference slate to 20 games and all set. Valley should do whatever it takes to make this happen.

 

[SgtHulka]

I'm more than a little shocked that the conspiracy theorists in the crowd haven't accused Muller of avoiding the high dollar buy games to keep ISU poor so they can't afford to buy him out.

 

[SgtHulka]

As for the MVC. The "family" thing is whatever.

The family thing stems from the fact we pull for each other. Does anyone think Indiana or Mich St fans and or programs give a rats ass about the illini or Nebraska?