@ Bradley

[Morans14]

Did either of the asst coaches move up to a head coaching gig? If you believe that moving to Michigan or Wisconsin as an assistant is a great move...then you are saying that ISU is beneath both programs...and can't compete at their level!

That just the way i see it. You wouldn't leave ISU for Wichita?

The big ten pays more and has higher visibility so they are considered a step up.


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I guess that is where the other 6000 fans missing in Redbird Arena are!

look. I'm a Redbird fam and a Valley fan but the reality is with the money, TV deal, etc, the big ten is a step up in the coaching world.


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[Tpguy]

Just think if Romine would have played we wouldn't be having all these discussions and Humingbird wouldn't be shitting his pants :lol:

 

[Birdfriend72]

Just think if Romine would have played we wouldn't be having all these discussions and Humingbird wouldn't be shitting his pants :lol:

:text-+1:

 

[Birdfriend72]

The big ten pays more and has higher visibility so they are considered a step up.


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I guess that is where the other 6000 fans missing in Redbird Arena are!

look. I'm a Redbird fam and a Valley fan but the reality is with the money, TV deal, etc, the big ten is a step up in the coaching world.


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The reality is...if our coaching staff thinks this way, then our recruits will think this way! There is a reason Payton reneged on his verbal. You can't try to sell your program as a contender if you believe it's a pretender.

 

[Morans14]

I guess that is where the other 6000 fans missing in Redbird Arena are!

look. I'm a Redbird fam and a Valley fan but the reality is with the money, TV deal, etc, the big ten is a step up in the coaching world.


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The reality is...if our coaching staff thinks this way, then our recruits will think this way! There is a reason Payton reneged on his verbal. You can't try to sell your program as a contender if you believe it's a pretender.

Yaklich signed with Michigan for $225,000 a year. Not sure what he was making here.


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[Birdfriend72]

look. I'm a Redbird fam and a Valley fan but the reality is with the money, TV deal, etc, the big ten is a step up in the coaching world.


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The reality is...if our coaching staff thinks this way, then our recruits will think this way! There is a reason Payton reneged on his verbal. You can't try to sell your program as a contender if you believe it's a pretender.

Yaklich signed with Michigan for $225,000 a year. Not sure what he was making here.


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Probably much less here. But, I would like to believe success here would lead to a more likelyhood to move on to a head coaching gig. It seems like Success at Michigan or Wisconsin is a given.

I don't disagree the money is attractive.

 

[Morans14]

The reality is...if our coaching staff thinks this way, then our recruits will think this way! There is a reason Payton reneged on his verbal. You can't try to sell your program as a contender if you believe it's a pretender.

Yaklich signed with Michigan for $225,000 a year. Not sure what he was making here.


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Probably much less. But, I would like to believe success here would lead to a more likelyhood to move on to a head coaching gig. It seems like Success at Michigan or Wisconsin is a given.

I don't disagree the money is attractive.

raising a family...i don't blame him for making the move. An assistant coaching gig n the big ten will likely lead to even more opportunities. Reality in college basketball.


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[MadBird]

Okay, so if it's okay for Muller to "promote" his assistants to "better" programs so they can move up in the world, is it okay for him to "promote" the McIntosh's and Hawkin's of the world to "better" programs so they can move up?

If you argue it's okay for Muller to wish his assistants well, then seems to me you should be okay with the same for the players. And Muller himself of course. So how the hey do we ever see this program grow (or one could argue, RETURN to past glory)? All of you moaners and gripers who don't think ISU is doing enough to "move up", please don't support Muller and the theory of moving up and out rather than staying and making ISU "great again"!!

So, I'm honestly not sure what argument you are trying to make here. Are you trying to say that we should be happy with players leaving, because we aren't upset that Muller helped a friend/employee get a better job? Because I'll be honest that's a stretch argument. Are you insinuating that Muller "promoted" those guys to better programs? Are you just ranting about Muller for funzies? I'm legit not sure what point this is meant to argue.


As far as assistants go, I honestly don't know what the big deal is of Muller helping his assistant go to a new program. Yak leaving isn't the cause of any of our current troubles, unless you believe he had magical powers that would have kept guys from being injured, Copeland from being academically ineligible, or he had some sort of spell that made our guys more consistent shooters. He might have been able to help with our defensive woes a bit, but I don't think he is the cure-all for that problem either. I don't see how Yak leaving, with the Muller assist, is taking our program down at all...

I'm not happy with Muller assisting our assistants to leave. I have no problem with him giving a good recommendation obviously. But it's been portrayed that he "really really" helped at least Yak and Haynes and probably Oliver too to leave. That did hurt our program, IMHO, I don't see how anyone can argue it didn't - we had to start over with a whole new set of assistants. I'd rather the HC do what he could to keep the "team" together as long as possible. I have no problem with any assistant moving on and up, just don't like the idea that ISU's HC "helped" lose some good assistants.

I'm not happy with the way this graduate transfer rule is playing out, and I hate that we lost two kids last year. I'm guessing Muller DIDN'T make calls and encourage the two to leave. But it seems to me the logic is the same as with the assistants - if you think it's okay for the HC to be concerned about the "professional" development of the coaches and help them move "up and out", then, how would you feel if the HC made some calls around to find a "better" spot for them? And on the other side, if you don't think it makes sense for the HC to encourage players to leave, for their own "professional" development, why would it make sense for the HC to encourage and facilitate assistants to leave? That's really where I'm coming down here - I think most people would be po'd to find out the HC was "facilitating" players to leave, so why is it okay for him to facilitate the assistants to leave (and I know there's some posters on the board who would be glad for Muller to facilitate certain of our players to leave!! )?

So, my "argument" is that I'm not happy about losing players OR coaches. And I would hope our coach wouldn't "facilitate" either group to leave. Like I say, it's one thing to give someone a good recommendation, but I would rather see the HC try to keep the band together. And I think the choice between "professional" development, so to speak, helping the coaches professionally, and helping the program which is paying you for performance and improvement, well, isn't that much of a choice.

No question our problems are deeper than just some assistants leaving, but I have to believe that transition to a new staff didn't help this team get off to a good start. Yak's been getting some credit for Michigan's defense this year, and Oliver getting some credit for Wisconsin's freshman point guard doing so well.

Hope that makes more sense, I know it's a little twisted.

 

[Hamdonger]

Just think if Romine would have played we wouldn't be having all these discussions and Humingbird wouldn't be shitting his pants :lol:

:text-+1:

It's Humdinger, my friend. And I wear Depends. So I can just let it go when the mood strikes.

And if Copeland and Romine had been cleared and in full healthy state, without the injuries to Clarence...David...Phil...Key...Bruninga...(that's more than half of our roster, cause I know you struggle with math) no, we wouldn't be having this convo.

I'll let Christian know you said hello...

 

[DWRedbird]

I'm not happy with Muller assisting our assistants to leave. I have no problem with him giving a good recommendation obviously. But it's been portrayed that he "really really" helped at least Yak and Haynes and probably Oliver too to leave. That did hurt our program, IMHO, I don't see how anyone can argue it didn't - we had to start over with a whole new set of assistants. I'd rather the HC do what he could to keep the "team" together as long as possible. I have no problem with any assistant moving on and up, just don't like the idea that ISU's HC "helped" lose some good assistants.

I'm not happy with the way this graduate transfer rule is playing out, and I hate that we lost two kids last year. I'm guessing Muller DIDN'T make calls and encourage the two to leave. But it seems to me the logic is the same as with the assistants - if you think it's okay for the HC to be concerned about the "professional" development of the coaches and help them move "up and out", then, how would you feel if the HC made some calls around to find a "better" spot for them? And on the other side, if you don't think it makes sense for the HC to encourage players to leave, for their own "professional" development, why would it make sense for the HC to encourage and facilitate assistants to leave? That's really where I'm coming down here - I think most people would be po'd to find out the HC was "facilitating" players to leave, so why is it okay for him to facilitate the assistants to leave (and I know there's some posters on the board who would be glad for Muller to facilitate certain of our players to leave!! )?

So, my "argument" is that I'm not happy about losing players OR coaches. And I would hope our coach wouldn't "facilitate" either group to leave. Like I say, it's one thing to give someone a good recommendation, but I would rather see the HC try to keep the band together. And I think the choice between "professional" development, so to speak, helping the coaches professionally, and helping the program which is paying you for performance and improvement, well, isn't that much of a choice.

No question our problems are deeper than just some assistants leaving, but I have to believe that transition to a new staff didn't help this team get off to a good start. Yak's been getting some credit for Michigan's defense this year, and Oliver getting some credit for Wisconsin's freshman point guard doing so well.

Hope that makes more sense, I know it's a little twisted.

It does make sense, and for the most part I would agree with you that I'm not particularly happy when a coach or a player leaves, but it's not a realistic proposition. The grad transfer rule is a killer for schools like us, because it basically means that we spend all the effort to groom a player and a P5 school gets to reap the rewards. It's a bogus rule, especially because once someone starts telling a player that the grass is "greener" at one of those schools, there isn't a lot we can do to say it isn't. We can beat our drum all we want, but the music coming form Oregon, Kansas, and Michigan is always going to sound sweeter.

However, the premise that a coach would ever "promote" or "assist" a player in going to a "better" school is kind of a moot point. No coach would ever do that in a normal circumstance, and the only way it happens would be if there was corruption of some kind involved (kickbacks, coach going to join that staff the next year, etc..).

As to assistant coaches. I think we would all agree that we'd be happy if coaches stayed forever, but it's not realistic. Assistant's leave all the time. If Muller helps assistant coaches get jobs at "better" schools, I don't have an issue with it. It will give him a reputation for helping to groom assistant coaches, which in turn could produce better and better assistants that want to come here for the opportunity to groom and send off the coaches.

And as far as hurting the program, the thing about that is to say that losing these two assistants hurts the program, is to assume that the guys that replaced them are not any good, and personally I think it is too early to call this fight. Give these guys some time (I know not easy for some of our posters), and see how the program looks in say 2 or 3 years, and we'll see if it "hurt" the program.

 

[isuquinndog]

There's a huge difference between allowing an assistant to move up and actively helping him leave. If I had a good employee that wanted to go elsewhere that's up to him but I'm not going to help him leave.

Then you are a bad manager and don't care about that employee. A leader helps develop their talent, gets the most out of their talent and wants them to move up in the profession they are in.

I have worked for a fortune 250 firm reporting to the CEO or President and across the organization talent development AND retention was a goal for EVERY people manager and that has been in place for the last 20 years. This situation is no different for the ISU men's basketball organization. Dan is paid to lead the program and that includes building a team of talented employees that can help lead, recruit, develop, coach as well as help promote/market the program... which should ultimately lead to long term success on the court. If Dan leaves next year what kind of position is the ISU men's basketball program as respects to bench strength from an employee standpoint? I am pro-Muller but firmly believe what he did was wrong and was a disservice to ISU/students/alumni by promoting talent to leave ISU.

For those that believe otherwise try going to your current boss and ask her/him to call up a competitor and recommend that they hire you or if you manage people start calling up your competitors and suggest they hire your star employees. Lastly for those that say "coaching" is different I believe there is absolutely no fundamental difference as every organization should want and strive to retain talented staff.

I would agree if Dan's team wasn't 4 people. If there were thousands, then fine. My boss knows I want to move up from my position so she has been shopping my resume around within the organization and giving me development opportunities to learn the skill I need for the area I'd like to be in and level I want to be at. But you can't do that on a basketball team. It's four people! Dan isn't just going to step aside without another job, as he shouldn't, so the only other option is to shop them around at other schools.

Coaches are all very close to each other and have a very tight network. It's not the same as someone going from Apple to Google.

 

[Bird Friend]

When did YAK become John Wooden? I guess I missed all those State Championships he won at Joliet West. I think he’s being overrated by some on here.

We tend to overrate two things on this board. The past and the future!

We tend to underrate two things on this board. The past and the future. Works both ways. Just sayin'.

 

[Bird Friend]

Okay, so if it's okay for Muller to "promote" his assistants to "better" programs so they can move up in the world, is it okay for him to "promote" the McIntosh's and Hawkin's of the world to "better" programs so they can move up?

If you argue it's okay for Muller to wish his assistants well, then seems to me you should be okay with the same for the players. And Muller himself of course. So how the hey do we ever see this program grow (or one could argue, RETURN to past glory)? All of you moaners and gripers who don't think ISU is doing enough to "move up", please don't support Muller and the theory of moving up and out rather than staying and making ISU "great again"!!

If a kid is going to leave regardless of what you do, seems to me it works in everybody's best interests to make it amicable. So when McIntosh said he was leaving and wouldn't be swayed, I think Dan was within his rights to call or respond to coaches and sell McIntosh. It would have also been within his rights to just say "See ya!" I just don't see Dan doing that to guys like MM.

Hell, if we're going to become a juco/"grad-school prep" program, we might as well become one of the best and only churn out high-level players. <tongue planted -- sorta -- in cheek>

 

[SoCalRedbird]

Regardless of whether we do or do not promote assistant coaches for purposes of future employment, we should consider the effects of how constantly changing coaches affects OUR program. It can't be good.

Losing Yak to Michigan was good for them, but not for us. The same holds true for the half dozen assistants who left before him.

#isuFIRST

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[Hamdonger]

Regardless of whether we do or do not promote assistant coaches for purposes of future employment, we should consider the effects of how constantly changing coaches affects OUR program. It can't be good.

Losing Yak to Michigan was good for them, but not for us. The same holds true for the half dozen assistants who left before him.

#isuFIRST

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Absolutely true, but so goes the never ending domino game of college basketball coaching.

 

[CaliRdBrd]

Yaklich signed with Michigan for $225,000 a year. Not sure what he was making here.


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Probably much less. But, I would like to believe success here would lead to a more likelyhood to move on to a head coaching gig. It seems like Success at Michigan or Wisconsin is a given.

I don't disagree the money is attractive.

raising a family...i don't blame him for making the move. An assistant coaching gig n the big ten will likely lead to even more opportunities. Reality in college basketball.


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An assistant coaching job at any regularly competitive program also equals opportunity. Problem is we haven’t been relevant/competitive in decades.
On that note, I don’t know of any other fan base that would find a 20 year NCAA drought acceptable and not reason enough to be angry and demand better.

 

[Tpguy]

Just think if Romine would have played we wouldn't be having all these discussions and Humingbird wouldn't be shitting his pants :lol:

:text-+1:

It's Humdinger, my friend. And I wear Depends. So I can just let it go when the mood strikes.

And if Copeland and Romine had been cleared and in full healthy state, without the injuries to Clarence...David...Phil...Key...Bruninga...(that's more than half of our roster, cause I know you struggle with math) no, we wouldn't be having this convo.

I'll let Christian know you said hello...

Humburger,

I'm real glad you can throw names around of your besties on the team, but this is the first I have heard we've been playing short handed. I'll have to watch a game sometime. I'm still hoping we never win a National Championship though.

I'll say hi to Yu Darvish when he comes to dinner tonight for Italian food.

 

[Hamdonger]

:text-+1:

It's Humdinger, my friend. And I wear Depends. So I can just let it go when the mood strikes.

And if Copeland and Romine had been cleared and in full healthy state, without the injuries to Clarence...David...Phil...Key...Bruninga...(that's more than half of our roster, cause I know you struggle with math) no, we wouldn't be having this convo.

I'll let Christian know you said hello...

Humburger,

I'm real glad you can throw names around of your besties on the team, but this is the first I have heard we've been playing short handed. I'll have to watch a game sometime. I'm still hoping we never win a National Championship though.

I'll say hi to Yu Darvish when he comes to dinner tonight for Italian food.

Give my love to Yu.

(Humburger made me laugh)

 

[Chicagobirdfan]

Yaklich signed with Michigan for $225,000 a year. Not sure what he was making here.


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Probably much less. But, I would like to believe success here would lead to a more likelyhood to move on to a head coaching gig. It seems like Success at Michigan or Wisconsin is a given.

I don't disagree the money is attractive.

raising a family...i don't blame him for making the move. An assistant coaching gig n the big ten will likely lead to even more opportunities. Reality in college basketball.


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I can’t believe this is a discussion. I’m sure Yak was making substantially less and gets to learn under a different coach for a few years before becoming a head coach. Do not let your bias blind you, It was a no brainer.

As for the recommendation, reputation is everything in the coaching world, so I’m happy Muller helps his assistant get a step closer to reaching their goals. You never know where yak will end up, maybe it will be here 5 years down the road . He will be better off seeing how things are done on other coaching staffs as well as mullers.

 

[Redbirdwarrior]

So maybe Dan Muller has intimate experience with how fleeting life is and that a job is a job and he should do what he can to help his assistants reach their life goals. You guys all of a sudden forget Torrey Ward? Maybe Dan is more willing to help these assistants because his friend, a great assistant coach (who I argue would be a HC by now), never got the chance to do so?

Dan has gone through an experience with his staffs in the last 5 years that almost no coach in any sport has had to deal with. And if what comes out of it is Dan Muller constantly trying to develop his friends and coaches to achieve career goals, how can anyone give him crap on that?