With Bison dominating and other top teams leaving, what's the future of FCS football

Total Red

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Not really. The improvements to "Redbird Field" were made and put under the plow by RA. The field moved to it's current location and was considered worse. Future upgrades made it into a very good facility. The track problem that the Valley had with us was the inadequacy of the indoor facility while basketball was being hosted in Horton. It was not a trivial task to take down and put up the bleachers that surrounded the court. The remediation was RA. It is confounding to me that you find this to be a bone worth picking. Every school that has joined the Valley has had facilities remediations, some more than others. Ours were on the heavy side, but if you recollect differently, whatever.
What improvements were made to "Redbird Field?" RA was built well after joining the MVC. Every school seeks to enhance their athletic facilities over a 5 to10 year horizon whether they change conferences or not. RA happened but I have never heard that it was part of some remediation requirement when joining the Valley.
ISU is better off in FBS and has the money to do it.

I've answered all of your questions, but have just one for you. What level of spending would it take to not "bring it weakly"?
We got some good news just recently. The funding for the IPF dome is in place and it is going to happen with construction starting in the spring. From a competitive and functional perspective an air supported dome will be a major step forward. Our athletic teams will have a year-round indoor space to train in on a turf field. When our football team prepares to play at North Dakota, North Dakota St. South Dakota or Northern Iowa we can practice inside, away from the wind and the rain, for a game that will played indoors. I think our QB's and receivers will really appreciate that.

From a FBS perspective we would still have a very long way to go to not bring it weak to the FBS (yes, I am using the more common slang expression that is grammatically incorrect, you win that one). Hard-sided IPFs are now common in the FBS. From a functional standpoint there isn't much difference, but a steel frame or concrete supported structure is more permanent, and it represents a greater commitment to athletics. Recruits like that sort of thing. Almost everything in Kaufman would need to be expanded/upgraded. If you look at team meeting areas, the locker room, the athletic training area, the equipment room, heck even the lobby, all of these areas are small and unimpressive by FBS standards.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say we have the money to do it. A major renovation and expansion of Kaufman would come with a large price tag and that money is not currently in the budget. And let's not forget scholarships. You will need a lot more scholarship money to field a FBS football team.

Hey, I get it. Going FBS also opens doors to revenue we are not currently getting. Would we still be able to come out even or ahead or would FBS football weigh us down? I seriously wonder if anyone can answer that with any certainty. It's a chance you take if that's something that Redbird Nation really wants to do. Like some of you I've been monitoring Redbird fan sentiment for over 40 years now. I don't think it's changed that much. This is still a basketball school. Lack of post season play has driven a lot of that support underground, but you can still look at the basketball board and see that that is where the greater interest lies. We have a group of fans that crave FBS football, but I've never had the impression that their roots run deep or wide. Basketball for old folks, E-sports for current students, interests lie elsewhere. Trust me, I'd love to be feeling the support for football like they have at North Dakota St. or James Madison but I'm not seeing it. The other way we could bring it strong to the FBS is to find more deep pockets. The IPF will be built primarily with private money due to a couple of major gifts. Was that a temporary spike or new trend? I hope to stick around for next 40 years and find out.
 

lakesbison

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I wish NDSU would go FBS.
Problem is. MAC/CUSA is a downgrade.
Mountain West is the best fit, but they dont' want NDSU coming in on DAY 1 and being the Big Dog.

its depressing to our fanbase.
 

TIMMY

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I wish NDSU would go FBS.
Problem is. MAC/CUSA is a downgrade.
Mountain West is the best fit, but they dont' want NDSU coming in on DAY 1 and being the Big Dog.

its depressing to our fanbase.
I have a friend on the basketball staff and I've heard this as well. Surprised me a little. But he said there's a groundswell of people pushing for them to move up.
 

Bird Friend

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I have a friend on the basketball staff and I've heard this as well. Surprised me a little. But he said there's a groundswell of people pushing for them to move up.
Well . . . with global climate change the permafrost in North Dakota finally melted so the ground could swell.
 

Reggie1857

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There are direct costs and direct revenues that are easier to distinguish but there are indirect potential benefits with branding, enrollment, and donations that makes this exercise a much more complex task.

Applications have been known to go up when schools make runs in NCAA basketball tournament, have meaningful FBS bowl wins, or enjoy athletic success in higher profile sports. Even if the total enrollment stays consistent, there may be a more selective acceptance rate. Donations generally increase during these time periods immediately following these accomplishments (athletic and nonathletic).

Athletics can also drive better branding to help obtain long term goals/donations such as larger enrollments, more selective enrollments, and introducing academic programs that produce an alumni population more able to donate (think engineering vs teaching). While the athletics alone doesn't necessary accomplish this, it can be an important component of the overall strategy that addresses it.
Only one of the 39 teams that have made the jump has dropped back down (and they're in a state of under 2mil people). I guess I'm inclined to believe there are a lot of indirect benefits involve with participating at the FBS level.
 

Reggie1857

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Yes we could easily compete with NIU and Ball St. in football if we wanted to but we don’t have enough people who want to.

That's a great point! Illinois State has never had the number of people needed within the athletic department willing to put in the work to get Illinois State to its potential in football. Illinois State athletics sadly has had a history of administrators who operated like C- students..... just doing enough to skate by.
 

Total Red

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That's a great point! Illinois State has never had the number of people needed within the athletic department willing to put in the work to get Illinois State to its potential in football. Illinois State athletics sadly has had a history of administrators who operated like C- students..... just doing enough to skate by.
You're well aware I was referring to our fan base. You've always been a bob and weave fighter.
 

TIMMY

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You're well aware I was referring to our fan base. You've always been a bob and weave fighter.
I sure agree with you TR. Our true fan base sits at about 4000. 2500 when the temps dip below 45 degrees. That wouldn't fly in the MAC. You've re-converted me.
 

Total Red

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I sure agree with you TR. Our true fan base sits at about 4000. 2500 when the temps dip below 45 degrees. That wouldn't fly in the MAC. You've re-converted me.
The counterargument has always been (this is about the 10,000th FBS thread and I've heard all the arguments so I'm moving this along) that 4000/2500 is our FCS attendance. We've got to stop thinking small. Think about what our FBS attendance could be.

The hook here is FBS. It polls well because you throw "FBS" out there and our fans get visions of Ohio St. or Notre Dame dancing in their heads. The reality is that we trade teams like Indiana St. for Ball St. and Eastern Illinois for Eastern Michigan. Those teams won't excite our fanbase or quicken their pulse. We've had chances to move to a lower rung of the FBS where we could struggle to compete. It's where we were when I got here. You can win and build sufficient facilities in the FCS with a modest fanbase. Water seeks its own level.
 

fourthandshort

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The counterargument has always been (this is about the 10,000th FBS thread and I've heard all the arguments so I'm moving this along) that 4000/2500 is our FCS attendance. We've got to stop thinking small. Think about what our FBS attendance could be.

The hook here is FBS. It polls well because you throw "FBS" out there and our fans get visions of Ohio St. or Notre Dame dancing in their heads. The reality is that we trade teams like Indiana St. for Ball St. and Eastern Illinois for Eastern Michigan. Those teams won't excite our fanbase or quicken their pulse. We've had chances to move to a lower rung of the FBS where we could struggle to compete. It's where we were when I got here. You can win and build sufficient facilities in the FCS with a modest fanbase. Water seeks its own level.
But do we really have the alumni and donor base with the level of money to do this and sustain this. Isn't one of the anti FBS arguments, we don't have enough professional undergrad programs to graduate people with the kind of income and eventual wealth to make a difference ? We started as a teaching school, and that remains one of our strongest programs. not even sure where that stands anymorem but cant imagine weve ade big strides.
 

Bird Friend

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But do we really have the alumni and donor base with the level of money to do this and sustain this. Isn't one of the anti FBS arguments, we don't have enough professional undergrad programs to graduate people with the kind of income and eventual wealth to make a difference ? We started as a teaching school, and that remains one of our strongest programs. not even sure where that stands anymorem but cant imagine weve ade big strides.
We also have an outstanding nursing school, so there should be lots of donations coming . . . wait . . .
 

Redbirdwarrior

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I don't see why NDSU would even consider going to any conference but the Big 12 or better. Think of their situation:

A culture of winning- Winning is a big deal to many high school athletes. You may see lots of players deciding between playing on a 6-6 Minnesota or Iowa State team or a 11-0 national champion team in North Dakota.

TV- NDSU is one of the few FCS teams that gets consistent national TV games and typically wins them.

NFL Prospects- You are fooling yourself if you don't think the Fargo Dome does not have 25+ NFL scouts with notebooks at every single game. They have produced two top 3 picks in the last 8 years. That is more than most SEC teams can say.

Local support- That fan base is LOYAL. They travel and they are loud and they help the team win.

NDSU is one of the most feared opponents in the country at any level. You'll never see Nick Saban invite them to a game in Bama and they won't be popping up on Athens or at Clemson. Those guys want nothing to do with them. Why? The mighty Bamas and Georgias and Clemsons would lose 3 of every 10 games played against the Bison and everyone involved knows it. Switching to a conference that might take risk any of those factors simply isn't worth it and now, with FCS players making a name for themselves in the NFL every single year and Coach Sanders straight buying top talent with NILs down in Jackson, the FCS might be a very nice place to be for awhile.
 

Virginia Redbird

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Alabama, Georgia and Clemson would lose 3 out of 10 games against the Bison? The Bison would give them a game but unless they just overlook NDSU I think Bama beats them 10 out of 10 times. Saban just has too much talent on his squad for almost every FBS team to compete with successfully. Maybe the Bison pick up a "W" along the 10 game trail against these teams but likely not. I am not saying the Bison would not do very well among most FBS teams. I think they would and their FBS record is solid. 3 out of 10 against the Crimson Tide? I don't think so and I am not in any respect of Bama fan. Actually, I always root against them.
 

crazzymark

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Ka-Ching. This thread has thrown out the names of a lot of other schools as if they were equivalents to Illinois State, but they are not. If you want to make the jump from FCS to FBS you need one of two things or a combination of the two. 1) A large fanbase that supports your program at the FCS level and puts it over the top. That's ODU. They routinely sold out their stadium with over 19,000 fans while still playing FCS football. Likewise with Boise St. They were the early version of North Dakota St. Back in 1980 Boise St. won the 1-AA Championship (now FCS) while regularly drawing 20,000 fans. These schools got excited about FCS football and helped their schools move up. Our fans downgrade FCS football and stay home. 2) SugarDaddy (or Daddies) Coastal Carolina may be the best example of this because they moved up fast. Multimillionaire Joe Moglia (former CEO TD-Ameritrade) was a football coach light on credentials when he was hired as HC at Coastal. Exactly how much he donated to the program he coached has not been revealed, but facilities improved dramatically during his tenure. Ball State has a permanent IPF structure. The Scheurmann Family Indoor Practice Facility (below) was made possible by a gift from (you guessed it) the Scheurmann Family. John Scheurmann and his wife had previously donated 4 million towards the renovation of Ball State's football stadium.

indoor2_march2020.jpg


Meanwhile Illinois State is still working towards final funding of a semi-permanent air supported bubble style structure. What Timmy said is completely true - "Hey, y'all money talks bullshit walks." Let's see the money.

From 1976-1981 Illinois State Football tried being a 1-A independent. We brought it weak to the FBS of that era. That was a long time ago but what has changed? Do we have lots of enthusiastic football fans? Are donors providing us with the type of practice facility we really wanted? I want to try something else too but bringing it weak to the FBS isn't something new. It's what we were doing when I first got here.
ISU had 0% graded players.. Average OL was 6'2, 290 lbs. Today. Majority of the players are a one or two star rating. Today, OL 6'6 315 as an average. 3 ,4 and 5 star rating now are on the roster. Under Coach Spack has done an amazing job player recruiting and development. So gaining the extra 15 scholarships and a bigger conference to recruit to are definitely in ISU's favor.
 

fourthandshort

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Alabama, Georgia and Clemson would lose 3 out of 10 games against the Bison? The Bison would give them a game but unless they just overlook NDSU I think Bama beats them 10 out of 10 times. Saban just has too much talent on his squad for almost every FBS team to compete with successfully. Maybe the Bison pick up a "W" along the 10 game trail against these teams but likely not. I am not saying the Bison would not do very well among most FBS teams. I think they would and their FBS record is solid. 3 out of 10 against the Crimson Tide? I don't think so and I am not in any respect of Bama fan. Actually, I always root against them.
NDSU would be lucky to give them a game for more than a half in 3 out of 10 games. Their only chance at competing is if those teams took them lightly and came out flat.

The talent gap is just so much bigger with these perennial BCS teams. Most games would be 3+ TD wins or worse.
 

fourthandshort

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ISU had 0% graded players.. Average OL was 6'2, 290 lbs. Today. Majority of the players are a one or two star rating. Today, OL 6'6 315 as an average. 3 ,4 and 5 star rating now are on the roster. Under Coach Spack has done an amazing job player recruiting and development. So gaining the extra 15 scholarships and a bigger conference to recruit to are definitely in ISU's favor.
OL wasnt even that big in 1980's at ISU. They weren't even that big in NFL .. Bears OL ran 260-280 leading up to 1985 super bowl.

Regardless, i dont think we have the donor or fan base to truly succeed at FBS level.

On the field, i agree Spack could build pretty good FBS roster .. definitely on defense - his 2019 defense might have been top 40 FBS ... top 50 for sure. But he needs to prove he can build a pass game to take pressure of run game ... i dont currently see that in Spack.
 
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