Two Deep Offense

[Virginia Redbird]

The key for next year is to get the ball to James Robinson 25+ times a game every single game. That guy is your playmaker and a potential NFL starter. Davis spent a ton of time throwing 18 yard out routs and having safeties jump those toward the end of the season. You gotta pull those safeties down by getting the ball to Robinson between the tackles, around the end and in the short passing game. You then have like 3 guys that are behind him that, on paper, should be able to absolutely shred defenses as spells.

Get the O to play through the HB and STICK TO THAT. Even if they put 7,8 in the box.

we struggled to do that as season progressed .. particularly in that our schedule got tougher and the better defensive teams figured us out ... largely because pass game deteriorated. I agree we need to lead with run game, but need our pass game to keep the good defenses honest.

Remember the 1st half against MoST (game 4) and 2nd half against WIU (game 5) ... this revealed our weakness. Then when it came time to play against the big 3 in weeks 7, 8, & 9 ... NDSU, UNI, and SDSU ... our offense couldn't handle it. They saw our weakness on offense and they we're able to contain us. We handled ISUb pretty well in game 10 .. but imploded in Q2 and had play from behind .. we probably make playoffs if we beat ISUb .. we outgained them 488 to 283 and lost by 5. Many thought ISUb was the most screwed team to not make playoff.

If we figure out the pass game, we're going to be very good.

No doubt if the Birds come out and just run the ball it will not go well. Last year the passing game was not very consistent. Brady was very inaccurate at times and as the season wore on and the defenses they faced got better it became very apparent they were fairly one dimensional. There were some flashes of Brady's talents last season but not anywhere near consistent. Some young receivers showed some good things last season. The running backs look pretty good much like last season. The O-Line looks to be solid but the passing game has got to develop into a real threat or other teams will just stack the line and dare Brady to toss the ball. In my opinion, the biggest problem overall for Redbird football is inconsistency. One game they look great and the net they lose to a team they should beat (MoState). As Fourth pointed out they have also been inconsistent from quarter to quarter in some games. That is a coaching problem to me. I am hoping the coaching staff work out the kinks for 2019.

 

[glenn_ma]

We need to have a lineup that forces them to defend the pass or get burned by it. Give Davis all the weapons/opportunity we can. If they still stack the box we better be able to pass on them else we have major issues with our passing game. I like this line up for every down, even on first downs. If they play the nickel on 1st, so much the better for Robinson.

I like Proctor in the slot, just so much speed to leave on the bench.

T Himmelman
G Megginson
C Bones
G Rients
T Solomon
WR Edgar
WR Haley
WR Blackman
Slot Proctor
QB Davis
RB Robinson

I see Zeke Martin from Illinois is still out there. Just makes so much sense for him to come here and play center, still hoping. :dance:

 

[fourthandshort]

We need to have a lineup that forces them to defend the pass or get burned by it. Give Davis all the weapons/opportunity we can. If they still stack the box we better be able to pass on them else we have major issues with our passing game. I like this line up for every down, even on first downs. If they play the nickel on 1st, so much the better for Robinson.

I like Proctor in the slot, just so much speed to leave on the bench.

T Himmelman
G Megginson
C Bones
G Rients
T Solomon
WR Edgar
WR Haley
WR Blackman
Slot Proctor
QB Davis
RB Robinson

I see Zeke Martin from Illinois is still out there. Just makes so much sense for him to come here and play center, still hoping. :dance:

Good point on Proctor ... he can't just be backing up Robinson for RB reps .. get him on the field in slot too if he has decent hands.

Reminder, we tried something similar with RB Towns (5'6" 175 lbs) when he backed up Coprich in 2014 .. that one didn't work out and it broke Towns confidence at RB for a while. Proctor is bit bigger at 5'8" 185 lbs and right now I am guessing he is better than Towns, but we will see. Only point is, I thought we ruined Towns trying to force him on field as slot WR. But coaches didn't want to give up any Coprich reps at RB and they wanted Towns on field. Nowadays they seem much more open to share the reps .. ala Bison. But let's make sure we put Proctor in best position to help the team and succeed. Don't force the slot thing if it aint working.

 

[TIMMY]

We need to have a lineup that forces them to defend the pass or get burned by it. Give Davis all the weapons/opportunity we can. If they still stack the box we better be able to pass on them else we have major issues with our passing game. I like this line up for every down, even on first downs. If they play the nickel on 1st, so much the better for Robinson.

I like Proctor in the slot, just so much speed to leave on the bench.

T Himmelman
G Megginson
C Bones
G Rients
T Solomon
WR Edgar
WR Haley
WR Blackman
Slot Proctor
QB Davis
RB Robinson

I see Zeke Martin from Illinois is still out there. Just makes so much sense for him to come here and play center, still hoping. :dance:

Good point on Proctor ... he can't just be backing up Robinson for RB reps .. get him on the field in slot too if he has decent hands.

Reminder, we tried something similar with RB Towns (5'6" 175 lbs) when he backed up Coprich in 2014 .. that one didn't work out and it broke Towns confidence at RB for a while. Proctor is bit bigger at 5'8" 185 lbs and right now I am guessing he is better than Towns, but we will see. Only point is, I thought we ruined Towns trying to force him on field as slot WR. But coaches didn't want to give up any Coprich reps at RB and they wanted Towns on field. Nowadays they seem much more open to share the reps .. ala Bison. But let's make sure we put Proctor in best position to help the team and succeed. Don't force the slot thing if it aint working.

How many snaps did we take without a FB, TE or both on the field last year? I don't see the above scenario happening much or at all this year. Maybe 3rd and a million or down by 3 TD's.
I like our TE's and love the FB. I can see Proctor at slot in a 3 WR set once in a while but not 4. But in my opinion this is a run first - play action offense. Run the ball and when they throw 8 into the box beat them with play action.

 

[glenn_ma]

That was my point, we did the FB and TE last year and how did that work for us? I think we need to look at it from a different angle or we just end up repeating what happened last year. How do we fix it? Just hope we got better?

I don't see having a TE and FB as the best way to counter them stacking the box. If they stack the box we need to be able to attack them and take advantage of it.

Just my thoughts on how not to repeat last years results.

 

[fourthandshort]

we did a lot of 2 TE and RB with FB sets .. putting them in motion, or fake motion .. it worked very well against lesser defenses, but the better defenses figured us out ... WIU, NDSU, UNI, SDSU. Agree we have to be able to spread things out against top defenses .. we're in this same category .. we're very hard to run against, especially when we know you have to run to move chains.

We only need to be pretty good at passing, not great .. but have to be better in throwing underneath ... this will open up the run game and make us a much mroe consistent offense. Also need Davis to be a little more threat to keep it on options ... his pocket sense is very good, so he must feel the pocket and see the field well ... just needs to keep it more often and slide most of the time. I don't think he is built to take a lot of hits.

I'm guardedly optimistic a full offseason with OC and WRs, and more fully absorbing our system will help a lot .. familiarity can only help.

 

[TIMMY]

I can "stack" the box just as easily against 10 personnel as I can 22 personnel. Numbers is numbers. I think you've both hit the issue. The key is being able to throw it and run it well enough that they have to play it straight. But until I see more skill out wide I'm not taking an exceptional fullback off the field. Just me.

Thanks Glenn and 4th. Talkin football!!! Springs coming, "Giddy Up"!

 

[DannyCooksey]

I can "stack" the box just as easily against 10 personnel as I can 22 personnel. Numbers is numbers. I think you've both hit the issue. The key is being able to throw it and run it well enough that they have to play it straight. But until I see more skill out wide I'm not taking an exceptional fullback off the field. Just me.

Thanks Glenn and 4th. Talkin football!!! Springs coming, "Giddy Up"!

I agree. I would love to have the balance in any formation and in any personnel group to be equally effective run/pass. in order to do that we need serious help on the outside.

otherwise.......i agree..............keep McCloyn in and pound the hell out of 25.

with this O-Line and with 25 as a senior...........we should have a very strong and consistent ground game. if we can find a couple guys to go with Edgar there are huge plays to be made in play action.

 

[TIMMY]

We only need to be pretty good at passing, not great .. but have to be better in throwing underneath ...

I love this point and I think it's a good one.

It seemed to me at the beginning of the season, CSU game in particular, Davis was able to hit the #1 route at the top of his progression without much trouble. As the season rolled on teams took #1 away but Davis stayed with #1 trying to make a big play. In the meantime #2 was open. He hit some of these, often a 15 yard dig to Schnell. The underneath stuff... well he never really got that far. And the called swing stuff didn't work all that well because they never sold the deep stuff. It's all about repetition. The more reps he gets the better. Get that 7 on 7 going.

 

[fourthandshort]

Hope #25 comes back hungrier than ever ... he has to be thinking about NFL draft and how much our offense depended on him. And now Markel Smith is gone. We'll see of Proctor makes a good #2 to take some of load off Robinson plus be a change of pace guy to give defenses something different to game an for ... we need 2 RBs plus 3rd in case 1 or 2 gets banged up.

 

[Total Red]

Spring practice begins in just two days (17th). Serious football fans will want to check out THE REAL two-deep on GoRedbirds for the beginning of spring.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/sidearm.sites/goredbirds.com/documents/2019/3/14/19_Spring_Camp_Notes.pdf

It always interesting to see what I got right and what I didn't for my two-deep projections. So Far.

The biggest surprise on offense is that WR Haley didn't crack the two-deep after starting in '18. That's a clear message that we need more from that position. We'll see what happens. I'm still concerned about the receiver position as a whole. Edgar had an outstanding freshman campaign but I think he benefitted from being no more than a distant 3rd concern of opposing DC's. Last season opponents would game plan to stop Robinson and Schnell because they were our two biggest threats. This season Robinson remains #1 but Edgar will move up to #2 and the #1 receiving threat. He'll get more attention and that sometimes results in a sophomore slump. I'd still take a summer transfer at WR to bolster the position if we can get a good one. Also Edgar needs to quit running down the field with the ball out to the side in one hand. Why coaches allow that I'll never know? Keep that ball tight to chest and Edgar will score a lot more TD's for us.

Other than Haley I picked all the correct starters on offense. Defense I wasn't as fortunate. First several players are being shifted among the various linebacker positions. Clark is going from SLB to the Jack and I was ready to promote Vandenburgh to a starting position and he will be but it's at WLB and not MLB. I still think we need more at MLB. DeForest only had 19 solos and thats's low for a starting Mike. I know there were times that he flushed out QBs and made RB's change their course and he created easy tackles for other players but even when you factor that in the Mike position just wasn't productive enough last year. I'd still like to see what Vanderburgh or Wilhoit can do with the position. Best man wins.

Of course the big difference between my projection and the official one comes down to new players. I have Iowa transfer Mends and New Mexico transfer Fehrmann as starters. I'm not admitting defeat on them just yet. There appears to be a different philosphy concerning newcomers on offense vs. defense. On offense new OT Adam Solomon is listed as a starter even though he hasn't played a snap here even in practice. He did start one game at Illinois. Meanwhile Mends and Fehrmann are left off the two-deep on defense. Obviously they are being asked to prove themselves before being given recognition. I still anticipate them proving themselves so the real test comes down to who lines up to start the game in DeKalb August 31st.
To further illustrate that point consider Romeo McKnight. He wasn't here for spring ball 2018 but he was a highly touted transfer when he arrived for August practices. Even so he wasn't listed as a starter for the 2018 preaseason two-deep. He was listed as a second string DE behind Swaine. They made McKnight prove himself and he did by becoming a starter and easily the leading tackler among the D-Linemen.

So with newcomers and really everybody else it's a "fluid" situation. I borrow the word "fluid" from a distinquished FCS Head Coach. Also check out the updated roster on GoRedbirds. You'll find lots of players are sporting new numbers this season. Brady Davis is now #1. Does he deserve #1? Let the proving begin.

 

[Redbirdwarrior]

Hope #25 comes back hungrier than ever ... he has to be thinking about NFL draft and how much our offense depended on him. And now Markel Smith is gone. We'll see of Proctor makes a good #2 to take some of load off Robinson plus be a change of pace guy to give defenses something different to game an for ... we need 2 RBs plus 3rd in case 1 or 2 gets banged up.

I guarantee you #25 has AT LEAST three NFL scouts at every single game next year. Not to mention AAF and XFL guys. Dude has A LOT to play for. And with Smith gone, he should be an absolute bellcow. He will touch the ball 23-30 times every game.

 

[fourthandshort]

Spring practice begins in just two days (17th). Serious football fans will want to check out THE REAL two-deep on GoRedbirds for the beginning of spring.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/sidearm.sites/goredbirds.com/documents/2019/3/14/19_Spring_Camp_Notes.pdf

It always interesting to see what I got right and what I didn't for my two-deep projections. So Far.

The biggest surprise on offense is that WR Haley didn't crack the two-deep after starting in '18. That's a clear message that we need more from that position. We'll see what happens. I'm still concerned about the receiver position as a whole. Edgar had an outstanding freshman campaign but I think he benefitted from being no more than a distant 3rd concern of opposing DC's. Last season opponents would game plan to stop Robinson and Schnell because they were our two biggest threats. This season Robinson remains #1 but Edgar will move up to #2 and the #1 receiving threat. He'll get more attention and that sometimes results in a sophomore slump. I'd still take a summer transfer at WR to bolster the position if we can get a good one. Also Edgar needs to quit running down the field with the ball out to the side in one hand. Why coaches allow that I'll never know? Keep that ball tight to chest and Edgar will score a lot more TD's for us.

Other than Haley I picked all the correct starters on offense. Defense I wasn't as fortunate. First several players are being shifted among the various linebacker positions. Clark is going from SLB to the Jack and I was ready to promote Vandenburgh to a starting position and he will be but it's at WLB and not MLB. I still think we need more at MLB. DeForest only had 19 solos and thats's low for a starting Mike. I know there were times that he flushed out QBs and made RB's change their course and he created easy tackles for other players but even when you factor that in the Mike position just wasn't productive enough last year. I'd still like to see what Vanderburgh or Wilhoit can do with the position. Best man wins.

Of course the big difference between my projection and the official one comes down to new players. I have Iowa transfer Mends and New Mexico transfer Fehrmann as starters. I'm not admitting defeat on them just yet. There appears to be a different philosphy concerning newcomers on offense vs. defense. On offense new OT Adam Solomon is listed as a starter even though he hasn't played a snap here even in practice. He did start one game at Illinois. Meanwhile Mends and Fehrmann are left off the two-deep on defense. Obviously they are being asked to prove themselves before being given recognition. I still anticipate them proving themselves so the real test comes down to who lines up to start the game in DeKalb August 31st.
To further illustrate that point consider Romeo McKnight. He wasn't here for spring ball 2018 but he was a highly touted transfer when he arrived for August practices. Even so he wasn't listed as a starter for the 2018 preaseason two-deep. He was listed as a second string DE behind Swaine. They made McKnight prove himself and he did by becoming a starter and easily the leading tackler among the D-Linemen.

So with newcomers and really everybody else it's a "fluid" situation. I borrow the word "fluid" from a distinquished FCS Head Coach. Also check out the updated roster on GoRedbirds. You'll find lots of players are sporting new numbers this season. Brady Davis is now #1. Does he deserve #1? Let the proving begin.

Good post TR .. and thanks for kicking off spring ball talk !!

General observations by position group:

Offense:
RB - depth is question, but were good here . Robinson is .. well Robinson, Proctor looks potent, and I love our FR class ... may see 1 get reps this fall
QB - depth is question, but I'm feeling better about Davis with full offseason .. needs to prove himself.
WR - depth is question, man were young here ... need to prove themselves after Edgar; hope transfer Blackman helps this group.
OL - were good here, starters and depth .. just need to step up more against big 3 defenses this year: NDSU, UNI, SDSU
TE - unproven, we shall see

Defense:

DL - love our starters, love our depth, love our youth ... last year, most of the reps came from RS FR and SO. So still young and this will be our strength over next 2 seasons .. if they stay hungry, MVFC better watch out !!!

DB - lover our starters, like our depth; this should be very good unit in 2019

LB - like our starters, not sure about depth; should be more than good enough playing between our DL and DB groups.

Just enough competition on defense to make us hungry again this year, thanks to couple key transfers, and young guys waiting in the wings. Last year was a very pleasant surprise on defense .. we lost 9 of 11 starters from strong 2017 defense, and still finished a smidge behind NDSU in many team defense categories in 2018. We return a lot .. so feeling very good about our defense in 2019.

Special Teams - love KR Uphoff already and idea of him pared with Proctor, potentially love PR Proctor (hands ?), Kick cover is usually sold, Punt cover is prone to breakdowns but ok; Kicker is big concern, Punter is good enough and should improve.

2nd year with all the new coaches from a year ago should be improved situation as they get in better sync. Defense really adapted quickly a year ago, Offense started fast and slipped, so looking for improved execution here .. need to shore up short-intermediate pass game .. liking OC Beathard to solve this with Davis.

Hate to dwell on this .. but 2019 comes down to short-intermediate pass game ... need to establish this !! If we are pretty good here, we will be very good and make a playoff run.

Our defense and run game will do a lot of damage if we are a more consistent threat to pass .. don't need great, just need good with some consistency.

 

[StLRedbird]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, guys.

I was looking at the two deep and decided it was time for another stupid question. I hope others get something out of this. What's the difference between the Jack and a DE? I see our two deep lists the defensive line as DE - NG - DT - Jack. Now, I like jargon as well as the next guy, but I really don't understand why these labels are as they are.

 

[fourthandshort]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, guys.

I was looking at the two deep and decided it was time for another stupid question. I hope others get something out of this. What's the difference between the Jack and a DE? I see our two deep lists the defensive line as DE - NG - DT - Jack. Now, I like jargon as well as the next guy, but I really don't understand why these labels are as they are.

like me, he's just asking for a friend .....


and please use small words for me !!

 

[MadBird]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, guys.

I was looking at the two deep and decided it was time for another stupid question. I hope others get something out of this. What's the difference between the Jack and a DE? I see our two deep lists the defensive line as DE - NG - DT - Jack. Now, I like jargon as well as the next guy, but I really don't understand why these labels are as they are.

Where's Timmy when you need him??

 

[isuquinndog]

Try this [mention]TIMMY[/mention]

 

[fourthandshort]

Try this @TIMMY

is this like his Batman signal ??

 

[StLRedbird]

Is it just me or does it seem kinda pathetic we're waiting for Timmy to answer a question like this?

 

[TIMMY]

D-ends in a 3-4 are really interior linemen. They line up from head-up to an outside shade on the offensive tackle. He is normally a C gap player if there is a tight end. But he can reduce down and be a B gap player depending on the call. A 3-4 DE is completely different skill set than a 4-3 DE and normally a more stout kid.
The Jack is what Khalil Mack plays for the Bears. Basically an OLB. He's the edge player on the line of scrimmage. When the Jack reads run he sets the defensive edge.(contain) by keeping his outside arm free and NOT flying up field. He wants to keep the ball inside of him on a run to him and run the ball down on a play away from him. Jason Harris excelled at this. When the Jack reads pass he gets after the QB from the outside. But.... There are calls that will have him drop into coverage from time to time. So he also has to turn his hips and run with people. It's a very high skill set and why they make the big bucks in the NFL.