Illinois State to the MAC?

[Hamdonger]

ISU’s rights and licensing revenue already doubles ticket sales with 2022 totals of $2.976 mil vs ticket sales of $1.426mil. These are down from 2017 highs of $3.9 mil and 1.9mil. Covid and losing has not been good on the athletic department revenue from operations.

ChiRedbirdfan always bringing good info to the table.

 

[Redbird222]

I definitely remember. It's not often that I go to an FCS football game where I'm not an outlier. It seemed like all 20,000 people there were just like me, hanging on every play. Unfortunately, 3/4 of those people were Bison fans even though NDSU is a smaller school. I didn't see that game as example of amazing support for Redbird Football.
Our fans did not match the quantity of NDSU fans that day, but we did meet or exceed them in quality. When Tre Roberson dashed to the endzone to put the 'Birds ahead late in the 4th Q that stadium ROCKED, even with 3/4 of the people standing there looking stunned.

I believe they played the day prior and had a head start getting tickets. I think that contributed a little in the disparity. I sat in a Naperville bar with about 300 Redbird faithful. I think there were a lot of proud alumni going into that weekend.

 

[BirdGrad2011]

Per Matt Brown’s paid newsletter the MAC is unlikely to target a FCS school. Doesn’t fully rule it out, but I think we can put this to bed barring any more leaked/official news.

 

[RedbirdSoxFan]

I believe they played the day prior and had a head start getting tickets. I think that contributed a little in the disparity. I sat in a Naperville bar with about 300 Redbird faithful. I think there were a lot of proud alumni going into that weekend.

NDSU did play their semifinal game on Friday, which gave them a little advantage in getting tickets. But I also was having a conversation with some Bison fans before the game (can’t recall the last time I had a beer at 8:00 in the morning). They said that the Bison faithful always purchased tickets the day they went on sale because they were always confident they would be in the Championship game if they did not make it they could always sell them online. Even if they didn’t, they were only out $75 (which were what tickets for Frisco were at that time). Enjoyed visiting with the Bison tailgaters before making my way over to Cindygate’s tailgate pregame shots.

 

[TBS_20]

Per Matt Brown’s paid newsletter the MAC is unlikely to target a FCS school. Doesn’t fully rule it out, but I think we can put this to bed barring any more leaked/official news.

Conference usa is better anyway. Believe it or not, it is. Numbers don't lie

 

[StLRedbird]

I started to give this a "Like" but I didn't because it isn't always the case.

Consider James Madison. They made a massive 56 million dollar improvement to their stadium that began in 2009 and finished in 2011. JMU was a FCS program at the time and attendance averaged about 15,000 per game. JMU was the FCS National Champion in 2004 and 2016. JMU recently joined the FBS in 2022.

It is rare but it can be done. But you need either column A or B to be true

Column A - $$$Sugar Daddy (see Coastal Carolina), Column B - Fanbase and school that gets excited about FCS football and lifts it up with attendance, donations and fees. JMU would be closer to B.

It doesn't matter whether you prefer FCS or FBS football. Column B - getting excited about the FCS helps you win at the FCS level AND it can make you an attractive FBS candidate. WIN-WIN

I think I first posted the Win-Win concept 20 years ago. Is Redbird Nation excited about FCS Football yet?

Bridgeforth Stadium - JMU

View attachment 1417

Before the 90s, I had a benign indifference toward ISU football. Around then I started blustering about how ISU should drop it. Or invest in it. But allowing bad football in the eyesore at the corner of College and Main was giving the university a black eye. Maybe WSU was right.

Then Bowman and Zenger identified the path and made a call to arms. Yeah, that was me, the one that swallowed the hook, line, and sinker. I believed and believe it's a proper institutional goal to get to FBS. But Column A was found to be bereft of checkbooks.

Column B is also about money, just a different way to get it. I don't believe we have to be dominating FCS or filling Hancock to make this move. The need for FBS is bigger than the football team. I believe both Bowman and Zenger would be nodding.

I don't believe our facilities deficit is fatal. I think we have intangible benefits that balance that out some. Spack talked about them when he was hired. Said that when was at Eastern he looked us as a well of untapped potential. Transportation, proximity to urban centers, name were some of the things he mentioned. We've at least addressed the facilities problem. Hancock 2.0, Kaufman and the bubble probably represent minimum viable FBS facilities.

Again, our budget today is squarely in the middle of the pack of the MAC. I think it's reasonable that both our revenue and our expenses will go up should we join, putting us in the top third. Since I mentioned Spack, I guess I should throw this out there too. We have the right coach to make the jump on the payroll right now. Some of these MAC schools we'd be joining have offered him in the past if the rumors I heard were true.

 

[Hamdonger]

But I also was having a conversation with some Bison fans before the game (can’t recall the last time I had a beer at 8:00 in the morning).

JohnnyRedbird, you didn't mention you were related to Foster and his grandson...

 

[Hamdonger]

JohnnyRedbird, Sr. #11 is your Redbird son.

 

[StLRedbird]

Just got back from the Enterprise Center. Funny part is that I'm not that upset. Feels normal. This is the basketball program we're so worried about harming in the MAC?

 

[Total Red]

Hancock 2.0, Kaufman and the bubble probably represent minimum viable FBS facilities.

I agree that we are at the very minimum level. That means joining the FBS with possibly the worst facilities in the division. Losing in the FBS isn't going to inspire anyone, so that means moving up with a commitment to major facility upgrades.
Where are our financials currently? I know the IPF did not go as planned. It was supposed to be 100% funded with private donations and that did not happen. My best guess is that we have debt to pay off for both Hancock and the IPF, but I do not know that for a fact. Regardless, major facility upgrades for athletics have always been difficult to come by at Illinois State.
My position on this has not changed in the last 45 years. Whatever level we play at I want us to do it well.
I know we can play well at the FCS level and compete for a National Championship. I have some doubts about fielding winning teams at the FBS level.

 

[StLRedbird]

I agree that we are at the very minimum level. That means joining the FBS with possibly the worst facilities in the division. Losing in the FBS isn't going to inspire anyone, so that means moving up with a commitment to major facility upgrades.
Where are our financials currently? I know the IPF did not go as planned. It was supposed to be 100% funded with private donations and that did not happen. My best guess is that we have debt to pay off for both Hancock and the IPF, but I do not know that for a fact. Regardless, major facility upgrades for athletics have always been difficult to come by at Illinois State.
My position on this has not changed in the last 45 years. Whatever level we play at I want us to do it well.
I know we can play well at the FCS level and compete for a National Championship. I have some doubts about fielding winning teams at the FBS level.

I think we would both probably agree that there's about zero chance of this actually happening. Interim president and AD. No clear consensus. Then again, maybe that makes it possible. I do think I have a higher opinion of our chances against the likes of the mighty MAC

 

[fourthandshort]

I think we would both probably agree that there's about zero chance of this actually happening. Interim president and AD. No clear consensus. Then again, maybe that makes it possible. I do think I have a higher opinion of our chances against the likes of the mighty MAC

I feel like the Field of Dreams biz strategy applies here ... if we build it, they will come.

Except this aint Hollywood where you can write your own ending. The THEY is of course the donors and fans. And this must include not just alumni and students, but also the BloNo community and a large corporate sponsor .. we need more from all fronts, if this will ever work. It also means we need to start winning more .. 2024 looks really good right now. But as Spacks critics have rightly said, we need to win more consistently.

Weve got some momentum right now on football front with the 55 returning JRs/SRs and 17 starters, a new IPF and 5 year IHSA playoff deal .. all should pay dividends go forward. Imagine next Nov/Dec, if we were looking at a possible top 8 seed and get a bye, and then watch the parade of IHSA football teams with al their families/fans making the trip to Normal, to ISU and into Hancock. Then imagine if we have a playoff run to final 4 or better .. that is a lot of planets aligning to a degree we've never seen .. not even 2014-15.

I realize this hinges a lot on this team being as strong as some of us think it can be ... but it is not unrealistic at all on paper. But, this fall sets up to potentially create a lot of momentum for ISU .. the University, the football program, all others sports too, and even BloNo. I'm not saying this will or even should pave way to FBS decision. But it will help our football program, and just maybe make an FBS jumps an easier decision for BOT .. especially if our hand is forced and we need to jump off a slowly sinking ship if we see signs MVFC could break up.

But it's like Zenger and Bowman (i.e. Friedman) said ... now it is up to the fans (and donors).

 

[Reggie1857]

Advancing the football program is something that should’ve been done years ago. The historical administrative apathy towards the football program has been palpable and has most definitely driven fans away. Somehow, it’s become fashionable on this board to blame the fans for the lack of progress but that view is silly and unrealistic. It’s never your customer’s fault that you didn’t resonate with them. It’s almost criminal how much this athletic department has fallen so short of reaching its potential. It’s a shame, because it never had to be like this.

 

[ChiRedbirdfan]

I agree that we are at the very minimum level. That means joining the FBS with possibly the worst facilities in the division. Losing in the FBS isn't going to inspire anyone, so that means moving up with a commitment to major facility upgrades.
Where are our financials currently? I know the IPF did not go as planned. It was supposed to be 100% funded with private donations and that did not happen. My best guess is that we have debt to pay off for both Hancock and the IPF, but I do not know that for a fact. Regardless, major facility upgrades for athletics have always been difficult to come by at Illinois State.
My position on this has not changed in the last 45 years. Whatever level we play at I want us to do it well.
I know we can play well at the FCS level and compete for a National Championship. I have some doubts about fielding winning teams at the FBS level.

How can that be? …many football posters on this board routinely claim that the MVFC is equal to or better than MAC football. Now when talking about going to the MAC somehow we can not compete with the MAC. I do believe we would be able to recruit more talented players being in the MAC vs the MVFC so that should help too.

 

[StLRedbird]

I feel like the Field of Dreams biz strategy applies here ... if we build it, they will come.

Except this aint Hollywood where you can write your own ending. The THEY is of course the donors and fans. And this must include not just alumni and students, but also the BloNo community and a large corporate sponsor .. we need more from all fronts, if this will ever work. It also means we need to start winning more .. 2024 looks really good right now. But as Spacks critics have rightly said, we need to win more consistently.

Weve got some momentum right now on football front with the 55 returning JRs/SRs and 17 starters, a new IPF and 5 year IHSA playoff deal .. all should pay dividends go forward. Imagine next Nov/Dec, if we were looking at a possible top 8 seed and get a bye, and then watch the parade of IHSA football teams with al their families/fans making the trip to Normal, to ISU and into Hancock. Then imagine if we have a playoff run to final 4 or better .. that is a lot of planets aligning to a degree we've never seen .. not even 2014-15.

I realize this hinges a lot on this team being as strong as some of us think it can be ... but it is not unrealistic at all on paper. But, this fall sets up to potentially create a lot of momentum for ISU .. the University, the football program, all others sports too, and even BloNo. I'm not saying this will or even should pave way to FBS decision. But it will help our football program, and just maybe make an FBS jumps an easier decision for BOT .. especially if our hand is forced and we need to jump off a slowly sinking ship if we see signs MVFC could break up.

But it's like Zenger and Bowman (i.e. Friedman) said ... now it is up to the fans (and donors).

You're gonna find this hard to believe, fourth. But I find this topic exhausting. Maybe moreso than TR, if that's possible. What is painfully obvious to me as beneficial to the entire university is seen by most of the Redbird Nation as risky, maybe reckless. It has made me question where my math is wrong many times. The MAC is a better overall situation for ISU. Keeps saying that on my bottom line.

The opportunity to join the MAC is not available every day. It may not even be an option for us if we vigorously pursued it with the resources we bring to the table. But IF the possibility is there, we need an open, frank airing of the pros and cons. It's a fan forum and that's happening. I'm sure this hot stove conversation will continue and I'll probably weigh in - we've barely touched on how academically superior the MAC is to the schools our current affiliations. Not even close. The BOT will care about that even if we don't.

 

[BirdGrad2011]

I’m pretty pro moving to FBS, but it’s because I want the best for ISU. College of engineering coming is awesome. It’s just time for us as a university to act like we belong. We have some of the best academics in the MVC. We have a great student body. We have a great alumni base. Let’s act like it.

 

[Total Red]

How can that be? …many football posters on this board routinely claim that the MVFC is equal to or better than MAC football. Now when talking about going to the MAC somehow we can not compete with the MAC. I do believe we would be able to recruit more talented players being in the MAC vs the MVFC so that should help too.

I've never claimed that we were equal to or better than the MAC. We've lost the last 3 meetings. You have to go back to 2012 when we went up to E. Mich and won 31-14 to find a victory against the MAC. I have said that there isn't much of a difference. If you put the teams in generic uniforms and neutral stadiums, fans wouldn't be able to pick out the MVFC from the MAC, so it's not an eye test - quality of play sort of thing.

My first year as a student at Illinois State was 1978. I'll bet you can't guess how many MAC teams we played that year. 6. Over half of the 11-game schedule consisted of MAC Conference opponents and Illinois State competed as a D-I Independent. This was prior to FBS and FCS so it was D-I, D-II, or D-III. Yes, we competed at the Highest Level, but we didn't do it very well. We went 1-5 against the MAC, beating only E. Mich. Sound familiar? Fans were so excited to be competing against the MAC that someone rearranged the letters on the marquee outside the football stadium to say "ISU Sucks." It was hard to argue. The FB team was 0-9 at the time. We weren't competitive at that level, but fans want to circle back anyway. Why not, most of you didn't live through any of that.

I know I go overboard on history but it's surprising how often it repeats itself.

1978 Football Schedule - Illinois State University Athletics

The official 1978 Football schedule for the Illinois State University Redbirds

goredbirds.com

 

[Total Red]

Somehow, it’s become fashionable on this board to blame the fans for the lack of progress but that view is silly and unrealistic.

I've never blamed the fans, but I have explained the realities of the situation. Realities like the attendance at the Nat'l Champ game and the realities of selling football at a basketball-first school. But you're on a 25-year bender of dogging the athletic administration so you can't be bothered with the facts.

If I'm wrong about that I'll give another chance to demonstrate how realistic and knowledgeable you are.
Please tell us the name of the level at which the Illinois State University Football team competes.
Should be quite easy for any knowledgeable and realistic fan.

 

[fourthandshort]

How can that be? …many football posters on this board routinely claim that the MVFC is equal to or better than MAC football. Now when talking about going to the MAC somehow we can not compete with the MAC. I do believe we would be able to recruit more talented players being in the MAC vs the MVFC so that should help too.

For starters, 20 more schollies alone would certainly make us more competitive than we are today.

Hypothetically for argument sake ... take that across the entire MVFC, which I believe is currently almost as good as the MAC, and we would likely become as good or better than the MAC .. hypothetically of course, since it will never happen. Certainly, NDSU and SDSU would be even more better .. bad grammar intended. From there, it is a question of programs like UNI, SIU, ISU, YSU, USD, UND being competitive for sure with 20 more schollies .. so thats 8 competitive teams right there. Then MoST some years. Leaving just ISUb and MuST as bottom dwellers, though ISUb is one of the most competitive bottom dwellers in all of FCS ... they lose many close games to very good teams over the last few years.

 

[fourthandshort]

You're gonna find this hard to believe, fourth. But I find this topic exhausting. Maybe moreso than TR, if that's possible. What is painfully obvious to me as beneficial to the entire university is seen by most of the Redbird Nation as risky, maybe reckless. It has made me question where my math is wrong many times. The MAC is a better overall situation for ISU. Keeps saying that on my bottom line.

The opportunity to join the MAC is not available every day. It may not even be an option for us if we vigorously pursued it with the resources we bring to the table. But IF the possibility is there, we need an open, frank airing of the pros and cons. It's a fan forum and that's happening. I'm sure this hot stove conversation will continue and I'll probably weigh in - we've barely touched on how academically superior the MAC is to the schools our current affiliations. Not even close. The BOT will care about that even if we don't.

I guess I don't assume the grass is greener in MAC than in MVFC, for football or all other sports. My openness to this is based on probabiity that MVFC will start to break up at some point. And I do want to be ready to make a move when those signs are showing.

But as I said at the start of this thread ... I honestly don't have enough perspective or understanding as many on this forum do. But I tend to listen closest to people who see this from both sides with an open mind ... the ones that usually go scorched earth with everything about ISU athletics sucks approach .. they're hard to take seriously even if they do know more than me .. they don't seem objective.

Put another way, if we weren't in the MVFC, I'd be far less content with playing at FCS level .. even while loving the 24 team playoff approach over FBS. Bottom line, I'm happy where we are in MVFC, but don't want to be left behind either.