Gargoyles @ Redbirds 1-17-18 6 p.m.

[ISU FAN 1]

I'm not going to begrudge anyone an opinion on the board, but I do want to ask if one or two of the posters realize they are watching Mid Major NCAA basketball, and not the NBA.

This is an important quote. There are two sides to it..

On one hand, we can't expect the performance to be so good that we compare it to the top programs. On the other hand, if we're just mid-major basketball, and that isn't going to change, then there really is no point of following this thing at all.

I think we have to have a level of expectation (and hope) that Muller can actually get us out of this mid-major mindset.

I'm not on here to celebrate lightning in a bottle. I'm not on here to support ISU players just because they go to ISU. I'm on here because I think (and hope) we can actually build the program into a much more competitive program. I want to win. If we don't win, I don't care.

After 25 years of following the program very closely though......and with the potential transfer rule changes coming.....I'm not sure we can get out of this thing.

The only way you can build a mid-major program is to win every year for an extended period of time. That's the only way people will care. That's the only way people will go to the games every single game.

Muller had a really good team last year and he knew he would lose most of those guys months and months and we just aren't that good this year. We can blame it on injuries and grades, but I'm sorry.....you can't get the fans hopes up and then go right back to mediocrity.

There were 6,300 people at Redbird Arena last night for the Bradley home game. There was no snowstorm. There was no sub-zero weather. Guessing not many people came in from Peoria.

That's just bad bad bad.

The best hope here is that Muller is trying to adjust his long-term strategy to recruit more kids from Illinois to build more interest in the program. But you can't do that at the expense of winning.

Hopefully he's two steps ahead of all of us, but I'm just not that sure.

Saw a graphic on a recent game that showed ISU 2nd to UNI in active (excludes WSU) MVC wins for the last 8 years, only 2 behind UNI at that point. And oddly enough that includes Jank's 4-14 year, and excludes two really good MVC records at the start of his ISU stint.

It's frustrating to see that, coupled with our many trips to the MVC title game, and not reach the ultimate goal for many fans. Tired of being just good enough to not make the Dance. Wichita State's exodus helps those chances in an obvious way (Valpo), but hurts prospects as well with a weaker overall league. All those teams that get 15 seeds that I don't know what conference they are from .... that's us now.

I'm with you. I want to win. Not interested in a mere winter time diversion.

 

[redneckredbird]

Always good when we beat the clowns from Peoria. Darrell Brown ain't gonna shoot 3-19 next time though. Fayne will probably get more than 8 and 2 next time though too.

In the end, it's just another practice game. Another game where Clarance got more time and got on the scoreboard. You'd like to see him get more than 14 mins in a home game. He needs to starting getting up to that 20 mpg mark by Feb. 1 and closer to 25 mpg by mid-Feb. Not sure that will happen. Only way the game will slow down is for him to be on the court more.

Don't agree with all the time, but u have been spot on with Clarence. The more time the better. He has a nice first step and good vision, needs to improve on decision making and his 3 pt. Stroke for sure.

 

[Baltimore Bird]

I have not read every comment, but I sure got the vibe of the discussion. My 2 cents

---First half was brutal---I agree with Muller
---We scored 41 in the 2nd half and looked like a real team
---Bradley's best athlete player appears to me to be Elijah Childs, a freshman; I liked his game, but he shoots FT's like Phil Fayne
---During the last two games, we have had two other players help, Clarence and King David. That was good to see. Both are gaining confidence after their injuries.
---Milik is a great FT shooter and slasher, but not a good jump shooter.
---Hein uses his off arm to push off regularly. He got called twice last night and I remember other games when it was called too and other times when I thought it might be called. He needs to fix that. I am not a big fan, but have been trying to keep an open mind. He has improved immensely. I would still rather have Elijah or Gassman in the game, but Hein has done numerous things I did not expect. Although, he is basketball sophomore, he is a junior and should be playing to his potential by now.
---When is the last time we had 2 double figure rebounders?
---We started to see David's soft touch last year especially at the line. If he can emerge, we will be much better.
---We often don't play smart and Keyshawn and Milik seem to be the leader in that category. As they have the ball in their hands alot, that is problematic. Last night, both played more under control. Moving Milik off the ball was a good move by Dan.
---We need to get at least 1 of 2 on the road trip.

GO BIRDS!

 

[Birdfriend72]

Can we just please stick to basketball? Why do we have to resort to name calling and child raising abilities? It's stupid and really painful to read.

Man I respect you and appreciate you, Quinn, and we're all here because of you...but the general consensus I get is that you are more apt to allow the naysayers to frothily rant while putting more of a clamp on those who defend the players (really, the treatment of them) on D.C. Court. JMO!

BTW peeps. NO ONE is saying Hein or Gassman (at least I'm not), either one of them, is All-Galaxy. They're playing because they were forced into it. But both of them have played better than I ever expected.

And that's gonna pay off the more games we play. Perhaps big time.

I'm not a predictor, but what the heck, I'm gonna make a prediction. TheValleyDancer wins the opening NCAA game. I actually totally believe it. Not sure why, but I do. We're not nearly as bad as what people here are making us out to be. Now let me take a puff off my peace pipe here, for just a moment.

I'll buy BF72 and ISUFan1 dinner if that doesn't happen...we'll hit Studio54 and dance our disagreements away. :dance:

If you care to make it more interesting than a dinner, I'll match every dollar you are willing to wager. And if the peace pipe is properly filled, put me down for that too.

I want that bet. No way the Valley team wins the first round. I will be rooting for them...and hope it’s the Birds.

 

[Birdfriend72]

I'm not going to begrudge anyone an opinion on the board, but I do want to ask if one or two of the posters realize they are watching Mid Major NCAA basketball, and not the NBA.

This is an important quote. There are two sides to it..

On one hand, we can't expect the performance to be so good that we compare it to the top programs. On the other hand, if we're just mid-major basketball, and that isn't going to change, then there really is no point of following this thing at all.

I think we have to have a level of expectation (and hope) that Muller can actually get us out of this mid-major mindset.

I'm not on here to celebrate lightning in a bottle. I'm not on here to support ISU players just because they go to ISU. I'm on here because I think (and hope) we can actually build the program into a much more competitive program. I want to win. If we don't win, I don't care.

After 25 years of following the program very closely though......and with the potential transfer rule changes coming.....I'm not sure we can get out of this thing.

The only way you can build a mid-major program is to win every year for an extended period of time. That's the only way people will care. That's the only way people will go to the games every single game.

Muller had a really good team last year and he knew he would lose most of those guys months and months and we just aren't that good this year. We can blame it on injuries and grades, but I'm sorry.....you can't get the fans hopes up and then go right back to mediocrity.

There were 6,300 people at Redbird Arena last night for the Bradley home game. There was no snowstorm. There was no sub-zero weather. Guessing not many people came in from Peoria.

That's just bad bad bad.

The best hope here is that Muller is trying to adjust his long-term strategy to recruit more kids from Illinois to build more interest in the program. But you can't do that at the expense of winning.

Hopefully he's two steps ahead of all of us, but I'm just not that sure.

Saw a graphic on a recent game that showed ISU 2nd to UNI in active (excludes WSU) MVC wins for the last 8 years, only 2 behind UNI at that point. And oddly enough that includes Jank's 4-14 year, and excludes two really good MVC records at the start of his ISU stint.

It's frustrating to see that, coupled with our many trips to the MVC title game, and not reach the ultimate goal for many fans. Tired of being just good enough to not make the Dance. Wichita State's exodus helps those chances in an obvious way (Valpo), but hurts prospects as well with a weaker overall league. All those teams that get 15 seeds that I don't know what conference they are from .... that's us now.

I'm with you. I want to win. Not interested in a mere winter time diversion.

:text-+1:

 

[cobird]

Tell me this, is there ANYONE on this thread who fired up their TV when we opened up against South Carolina, saw Hein in the starting lineup, and wondered who had invaded HCDM's body? And who didn't walk away from that game wondering who in the hell had invaded MH's body??And now when the ball is in MH's hands I'm more comfortable with him than any other guard on the team. Maybe this is Hein's plateau....maybe not. But why would we think that any more than we do KE or EC? What if his trajectory continues? I hope he, DN, KE, EC (particularly EC), The Gass, Taylor, Boogie, Phil...all of them keep improving. But saying MH is only getting these minutes because of injuries etc is again a false narrative. Led the team in minutes last night and is one of the minute leaders since Ole Miss. There is a reason DM is giving the kid big minutes and it's not because he's the only choice. One other "optic" since we like that word. We look at assists but I would love to know how many shots were taken from the player who made the "assist pass" whether it went in or not. In essence "who's creating opportunities"... I will bet the optics prove out something that makes RB72 squirm

 

[jturner38]

I'm willing to discount Indy State's blowout win over the Hoosiers because that was not a regular season non-con game.

:think: It was a nonconference regular season game.

 

[RedbirdMan]

Tell me this, is there ANYONE on this thread who fired up their TV when we opened up against South Carolina, saw Hein in the starting lineup, and wondered who had invaded HCDM's body? And who didn't walk away from that game wondering who in the hell had invaded MH's body??And now when the ball is in MH's hands I'm more comfortable with him than any other guard on the team. Maybe this is Hein's plateau....maybe not. But why would we think that any more than we do KE or EC? What if his trajectory continues? I hope he, DN, KE, EC (particularly EC), The Gass, Taylor, Boogie, Phil...all of them keep improving. But saying MH is only getting these minutes because of injuries etc is again a false narrative. Led the team in minutes last night and is one of the minute leaders since Ole Miss. There is a reason DM is giving the kid big minutes and it's not because he's the only choice. One other "optic" since we like that word. We look at assists but I would love to know how many shots were taken from the player who made the "assist pass" whether it went in or not. In essence "who's creating opportunities"... I will bet the optics prove out something that makes RB72 squirm

You trust Hein with the ball over KE, MW, EC, and MY?!?!

 

[cobird]

Tell me this, is there ANYONE on this thread who fired up their TV when we opened up against South Carolina, saw Hein in the starting lineup, and wondered who had invaded HCDM's body? And who didn't walk away from that game wondering who in the hell had invaded MH's body??And now when the ball is in MH's hands I'm more comfortable with him than any other guard on the team. Maybe this is Hein's plateau....maybe not. But why would we think that any more than we do KE or EC? What if his trajectory continues? I hope he, DN, KE, EC (particularly EC), The Gass, Taylor, Boogie, Phil...all of them keep improving. But saying MH is only getting these minutes because of injuries etc is again a false narrative. Led the team in minutes last night and is one of the minute leaders since Ole Miss. There is a reason DM is giving the kid big minutes and it's not because he's the only choice. One other "optic" since we like that word. We look at assists but I would love to know how many shots were taken from the player who made the "assist pass" whether it went in or not. In essence "who's creating opportunities"... I will bet the optics prove out something that makes RB72 squirm

You trust Hein with the ball over KE, MW, EC, and MY?!?!

Over EC absolutely. Recently, yes over KE... MY is a different type player but if we are all about the stats...yes. MW I would call a draw....

 

[RedbirdMan]

Tell me this, is there ANYONE on this thread who fired up their TV when we opened up against South Carolina, saw Hein in the starting lineup, and wondered who had invaded HCDM's body? And who didn't walk away from that game wondering who in the hell had invaded MH's body??And now when the ball is in MH's hands I'm more comfortable with him than any other guard on the team. Maybe this is Hein's plateau....maybe not. But why would we think that any more than we do KE or EC? What if his trajectory continues? I hope he, DN, KE, EC (particularly EC), The Gass, Taylor, Boogie, Phil...all of them keep improving. But saying MH is only getting these minutes because of injuries etc is again a false narrative. Led the team in minutes last night and is one of the minute leaders since Ole Miss. There is a reason DM is giving the kid big minutes and it's not because he's the only choice. One other "optic" since we like that word. We look at assists but I would love to know how many shots were taken from the player who made the "assist pass" whether it went in or not. In essence "who's creating opportunities"... I will bet the optics prove out something that makes RB72 squirm

You trust Hein with the ball over KE, MW, EC, and MY?!?!

Over EC absolutely. Recently, yes over KE... MY is a different type player but if we are all about the stats...yes. MW I would call a draw....

That is insane. You're nuts.

 

[cobird]

Tell me this, is there ANYONE on this thread who fired up their TV when we opened up against South Carolina, saw Hein in the starting lineup, and wondered who had invaded HCDM's body? And who didn't walk away from that game wondering who in the hell had invaded MH's body??And now when the ball is in MH's hands I'm more comfortable with him than any other guard on the team. Maybe this is Hein's plateau....maybe not. But why would we think that any more than we do KE or EC? What if his trajectory continues? I hope he, DN, KE, EC (particularly EC), The Gass, Taylor, Boogie, Phil...all of them keep improving. But saying MH is only getting these minutes because of injuries etc is again a false narrative. Led the team in minutes last night and is one of the minute leaders since Ole Miss. There is a reason DM is giving the kid big minutes and it's not because he's the only choice. One other "optic" since we like that word. We look at assists but I would love to know how many shots were taken from the player who made the "assist pass" whether it went in or not. In essence "who's creating opportunities"... I will bet the optics prove out something that makes RB72 squirm

You trust Hein with the ball over KE, MW, EC, and MY?!?!

Over EC absolutely. Recently, yes over KE... MY is a different type player but if we are all about the stats...yes. MW I would call a draw....

Bottom line... I think MH brings a lot to this team and is deserving of starting and getting his minutes. I'm interested in seeing if he continues to improve and what the topside might be. I'm looking forward to seeing EC develop...seeing topside of KE and PF... Hoping last night was a precursor for DN and others. I'm just tired of the abuse some lob off at these kids from behing the comfort of their PC's. It's pathetic.

 

[cobird]

You trust Hein with the ball over KE, MW, EC, and MY?!?!

Over EC absolutely. Recently, yes over KE... MY is a different type player but if we are all about the stats...yes. MW I would call a draw....

That is insane. You're nuts.

Which part?? Do we use stats? If so, look at the T/O's per minutes played over the last 10 games and get back with me. You can't use stats when it's convenient and then discount it when it doesn't meet your particular narrative. Set the criteria...better yet I'll go do the math....

 

[RedbirdMan]

Over EC absolutely. Recently, yes over KE... MY is a different type player but if we are all about the stats...yes. MW I would call a draw....

That is insane. You're nuts.

Which part?? Do we use stats? If so, look at the T/O's per minutes played over the last 10 games and get back with me. You can't use stats when it's convenient and then discount it when it doesn't meet your particular narrative. Set the criteria...better yet I'll go do the math....

No one in the basketball world with any sort of expertise would ever agree that MH is our most reliable player. Nothing against the kid, I want the team to succeed bottom line. Most of my complaints on here are more Muller-centric than any player. But you are objectively wrong with this one.

 

[cobird]

Over EC absolutely. Recently, yes over KE... MY is a different type player but if we are all about the stats...yes. MW I would call a draw....

That is insane. You're nuts.

Which part?? Do we use stats? If so, look at the T/O's per minutes played over the last 10 games and get back with me. You can't use stats when it's convenient and then discount it when it doesn't meet your particular narrative. Set the criteria...better yet I'll go do the math....

OK...quick math...since the Ole Miss game:
MY: 1 T/O per every 6.8 minutes
KE: 1 T/O per every 15.6 minute
MH: 1 T/O per every 18.9 minutes
MW: 1 T/O per every 30.3 minutes
By this measure, it's MW. But to think it's "insane"?? The "optics" don't show it.... I'm not here to debate who is better than whom. All these guys bring something to the table. I'm just tired of the unsubstantiated rips.

 

[cobird]

That is insane. You're nuts.

Which part?? Do we use stats? If so, look at the T/O's per minutes played over the last 10 games and get back with me. You can't use stats when it's convenient and then discount it when it doesn't meet your particular narrative. Set the criteria...better yet I'll go do the math....

No one in the basketball world with any sort of expertise would ever agree that MH is our most reliable player. Nothing against the kid, I want the team to succeed bottom line. Most of my complaints on here are more Muller-centric than any player. But you are objectively wrong with this one.

And I may well be on this point...But completely respect your opinion....

 

[Birdfriend72]

You trust Hein with the ball over KE, MW, EC, and MY?!?!

Over EC absolutely. Recently, yes over KE... MY is a different type player but if we are all about the stats...yes. MW I would call a draw....

That is insane. You're nuts.

He must be his relative.

 

[Birdfriend72]

That is insane. You're nuts.

Which part?? Do we use stats? If so, look at the T/O's per minutes played over the last 10 games and get back with me. You can't use stats when it's convenient and then discount it when it doesn't meet your particular narrative. Set the criteria...better yet I'll go do the math....

No one in the basketball world with any sort of expertise would ever agree that MH is our most reliable player. Nothing against the kid, I want the team to succeed bottom line. Most of my complaints on here are more Muller-centric than any player. But you are objectively wrong with this one.

That has been my point. There is perspective that you are happy to go .500 (that’s where Hein in the lineup will lead us) or you want to make the NIT...maybe the NCAA tournament if things fall our way (that would be a reduced roll for Hein). For this team to reach higher...will require Evans, Yarborough and Fayne on the court. All this talk about his defense, most admit that you need to play zone with him on the court.

 

[ISU FAN 1]

That is insane. You're nuts.

Which part?? Do we use stats? If so, look at the T/O's per minutes played over the last 10 games and get back with me. You can't use stats when it's convenient and then discount it when it doesn't meet your particular narrative. Set the criteria...better yet I'll go do the math....

OK...quick math...since the Ole Miss game:
MY: 1 T/O per every 6.8 minutes
KE: 1 T/O per every 15.6 minute
MH: 1 T/O per every 18.9 minutes
MW: 1 T/O per every 30.3 minutes
By this measure, it's MW. But to think it's "insane"?? The "optics" don't show it.... I'm not here to debate who is better than whom. All these guys bring something to the table. I'm just tired of the unsubstantiated rips.

More to handling the ball than turnovers. Creating for others is part of having the ball in your hands.

 

[Birdfriend72]

That is insane. You're nuts.

Which part?? Do we use stats? If so, look at the T/O's per minutes played over the last 10 games and get back with me. You can't use stats when it's convenient and then discount it when it doesn't meet your particular narrative. Set the criteria...better yet I'll go do the math....

OK...quick math...since the Ole Miss game:
MY: 1 T/O per every 6.8 minutes
KE: 1 T/O per every 15.6 minute
MH: 1 T/O per every 18.9 minutes
MW: 1 T/O per every 30.3 minutes
By this measure, it's MW. But to think it's "insane"?? The "optics" don't show it.... I'm not here to debate who is better than whom. All these guys bring something to the table. I'm just tired of the unsubstantiated rips.

Probably because Malik is a threat on the floor. Trust me...I don’t see Hein getting double team. Most of the time teams are daring him to shoot.

 

[CaliRdBrd]

Snowflake?? Lol...that would be me since I live in Denver. Anyway, a poster previously mentioned Hein's stats and ratings. This is EXACTLY what we should be talking about and debating for all the kids. As an alum, I've long enjoyed reading the various comments and perspectives of fellow Redbirds but I know where the line is between fair critique and personal attacks. As I mentioned prior, there are some on here who have a personal issue with Hein. Only they know why and.whether you've coached and recruited is irrelevant. So here's my take. I've read countless posts over many years about how this kid or that kid was gonna save us and those "saviors" are gone. I too had serious doubts about MH but he is proving me wrong.
We are all willing to give EC the benefit of the doubt as we seem to do for all young players. I believe he will be outstanding. I believe MH is on an equal, if not better or different trajectory. Looking at the metrics from the beginnig of the year MH numbers aren't that hot. But why not take into account that he's basically in his FIRST year. Since his breakout in the Ole Miss game he's averaging 25 minutes; 35% FG from the floor, 44% from 3-pt, 75% FT, 1:1 A/TO, and 3 boards a game (I passed math class). Muller has made it clear he trusts him and puts him on the other teams best guard. He's also a very good zone defender (my optics as one might say). Add in leadership and intangibles as we've seen and he's turning into a very productive player. So, why are we not giving this kid some room to grow as we have so many others? Is the kid perfect? Not even close. He needs to get tougher on ball in the half court. He gets silly fouls. Needs to move his feet better. But to say he's only getting minutes because MW is out is a joke. He's been starting all year and helped us win some key games. Trust me, I see the flaws in this kid but I also see a player who has blown away expectations and has earned my respect.