Missouri State - family day

[Redbird222]

B

You’re giving Waring a pass because the O-line and play calling is bad. As if when Jefferson is in, it’s not???

Better O line play would help both.

That being said, I still believe Waring is the better QB and has more upside potential. He throws a much better ball that is generally more accurate and catchable. Jefferson may be a mobile, but Waring is more than capable.

Spack seems to be opening the passing playback a little more with Waring which to me shows that he has more confidence. It may not be fair to Jefferson but just an observation.

The lack of a consistent running game and o-line play has hurt both of them and has contributed to some of their poor decisions. If Waring was fortunate enough to be playing with the 2019 running game and O-line play, I think he would be very succesful.

 

[TIMMY]

B
Better O line play would help both.

That being said, I still believe Waring is the better QB and has more upside potential. He throws a much better ball that is generally more accurate and catchable. Jefferson may be a mobile, but Waring is more than capable.

Spack seems to be opening the passing playback a little more with Waring which to me shows that he has more confidence. It may not be fair to Jefferson but just an observation.

The lack of a consistent running game and o-line play has hurt both of them and has contributed to some of their poor decisions. If Waring was fortunate enough to be playing with the 2019 running game and O-line play, I think he would be very succesful.

For me, it comes down to 3 things. Accuracy, mechanics, and vision. Mechanics can be taught. And it bothers me that Jefferson's mechanics are still lacking. Who's coaching the kid up? Accuracy and vision? Can't teach that stuff. Waring's got it. The kid needs to play.

I'm glad the turd Beathard is gone but they never replaced him. He could coach.

 

[Virginia Redbird]

You’re giving Waring a pass because the O-line and play calling is bad. As if when Jefferson is in, it’s not???

AngryBird you are aptly named. Chill buddy. You are a Jefferson fan...good for you! Have a good night!

 

[jbird]

Watching in real time from my seat, I thought that the scoop and score in the Bears' first series was a legit fumble.

Whether the QB's arm was moving forward is only the first of the two-part test; the second being did the ball travel (1) forward toward the line of scrimmage; (2) sideways; or (3) backwards? I recorded the game and still think it was a fumble. When the QB got hit, he basically spiked the ball into the ground and watching it a couple of times on my recording I don't think that the ball went forward and landed IN FRONT OF the QB. I'm surprised the ref said that the call was "confirmed."

 

[Angrybird]

AngryBird you are aptly named. Chill buddy. You are a Jefferson fan...good for you! Have a good night!

I just want consistency amongst this laughing stock of a hypocritical fan base. If one guy gets fingers pointed for one thing. The next does too. You can’t just give a pass to fit narratives.

 

[RedbirdSoxFan]

Watching in real time from my seat, I thought that the scoop and score in the Bears' first series was a legit fumble.

Whether the QB's arm was moving forward is only the first of the two-part test; the second being did the ball travel (1) forward toward the line of scrimmage; (2) sideways; or (3) backwards? I recorded the game and still think it was a fumble. When the QB got hit, he basically spiked the ball into the ground and watching it a couple of times on my recording I don't think that the ball went forward and landed IN FRONT OF the QB. I'm surprised the ref said that the call was "confirmed."

I thought the same as you jbird!

 

[Virginia Redbird]

I just want consistency amongst this laughing stock of a hipocritical fan base. If one guy gets fingers pointed for one thing. The next does too. You can’t just give a pass to fit narratives.

If you look at the roster Biographical pages you will see that Jefferson redshirted in 2018, he saw limited action in 2019 but started the playoff games when Brady Davis was injured. Of some note, the coaching staff opted for Jack Baltz in the last game against Youngstown State instead of Jefferson. Baltz was a disaster in that game but it shows a distinct lack of confidence by the coaching staff in Jefferson. Jefferson played well overall in the playoff games but look back at those games and he essentially handed off to JR behind a very good O-line and also had the benefit of a very good defense. Jefferson was with the team all of 2020 but of course, that was impacted for any in-person activity by Covid. He played in the very unsuccessful spring season with some good things and some bad things. In the game this season against Butler I can't really factor much into any evaluation of any ISU player. Butler was simply heavily overmatched. Nobody on offense, or defense for that matter, looked good at Western Michigan. Jefferson had a good first series against EIU but was injured just before the first score.

Contrast that with Waring, who signed with the Redbirds in December 2019, Redbird Football Signs 12, Adds FBS Transfer On Early Signing Day - Illinois State University Athletics,. He had a few plays in the NDSU game in the spring of 2021. He played most of the EIU game but without the preparation and repetitions, a starter gets. He has started two games since and his performance has been mixed with some good things and some mistakes. He is at the very beginning of his college career and had no redshirt season to develop mechanics or game awareness and decision making at this level.

2021 is Jefferson’s fourth year in the Redbird football program (Redshirt 2018). I don’t see Jefferson improving much from where he is now. I think Waring has much better potential for the future but right now it is a learning phase. There is no “narrative” here from my perspective. I would expect more, much more, from a player that has been in the program as long as Jefferson. I would expect mistakes from a QB making his second start. Pretty much as simple as that.

At this point in a season that is going to be very rough it seems, I would start Waring every game the rest of the way. Just my opinion.

 

[Total Red]

Line play. Both sides of the ball. QB has talent.

I would be a little more specific. The running game wasn't there for the 'Birds. Mo. St. had some wide bodies on the D-line and we couldn't move them. On the other hand the pass protection was fairly good even with the O-Line once again reshuffled with Georgie moving from G to T. We needed to go vertical and we did. Waring put the ball where it could be caught, the receivers went after it and made catches, and the O-Line provided protection. In the first half the passing game looked better than it has in a long time. Again, not sure what happened in the 2nd half except to say that young QBs are prone to mistakes.

The defense missed tackles on all levels. Line, linebacker, secondary.

 

[Total Red]

I just want consistency amongst this laughing stock of a hypocritical fan base. If one guy gets fingers pointed for one thing. The next does too. You can’t just give a pass to fit narratives.

I agree with Virginia. We give a new QB a short honeymoon. After that we want a QB as good or better than what the other team has. With the exception of non-scholly FCS Butler we haven't had that in a long time. WIU in the spring? Jefferson had much better protection than Connor Sampson.

Waring had some throws he would like back but he showed some real touch on the ball. We're seeing more from him at an early stage of his career.
I think you're right about this. The coaches will go with Jefferson for Homecoming. It wouldn't be the first time I've disagreed with the coaching staff regarding the QB position.

 

[RBFANTOO]

IMHO the O-line was horrible and the OC play calling was equally as bad. The running game can't work if the backs have no gaps to run through. But the play calling kept trying to run up the middle. Not with this O-line. Waring was also lucky to escape with his life considering the lack of protection by the O-line. Yes he made some mistakes, but considering his lack of experience he showed some good potential for the future.

 

[Redbird15]

Jefferson was not a true freshman when he was thrust into the starting lineup and he had a very solid O-Line and a guy named J Robinson too.

For me, it comes down to 3 things. Accuracy, mechanics, and vision. Mechanics can be taught. And it bothers me that Jefferson's mechanics are still lacking. Who's coaching the kid up? Accuracy and vision? Can't teach that stuff. Waring's got it. The kid needs to play.

I'm glad the turd Beathard is gone but they never replaced him. He could coach.

Beathard was not coaching ! It was they had JR. Everything was geared around JR. Busted plays JR still got 3 yds so OL look good LMAO ! Even Brady as QB he look good not great ! Um where is he now if his mechanics etc was so great ! The WR crew that everyone was saying was great other than snell ? Development comes with coaching ! We only seeing that for the most part on the defensive side of the ball those players show progression ! Um OC & OL staff ? Fingers and eyes should be in that direction !

 

[isuphloyd]

Was there any justification for the targeting call and ejection?

 

[redbirdfan04]

Waring is the best QB on the roster. It is obvious after 5 games. He made some really great plays and some you scratch your head on. The biggest plus I see with him at this point is he keeps his eyes downfield. Spack and his staff know this is going to be a grind the rest of the way. Play Waring and make him better each week. Look at Western, they have made huge strides in a year. They are in each game and getting better. We put together a strong half and one drive vs. SIU. We played well enough to win for a half this week. Keep teaching the little things in practice and the wins will start to come, not this year but next for sure.

 

[redbirdfan04]

Was there any justification for the targeting call and ejection?

It was impossible to know live. I watched the replay and I am not sure about it still? It looked like a good acting job from the WR. After being on the ground for a few minutes he popped up and played a few plays later. The rule is tough as I do think his hand and arm hit his face mask and by rule you can't make contact to the head with a defenseless player.

 

[redbirdfan04]

Also the stat lines from Shelley and Waring are not far off. Waring had two more ints but Waring had 1 more passing TD. I know we can say some of the passing yards were in garbage time but throwing for over 300 yards in a Valley game is excellent.

 

[MadBird]

A few thoughts after a couple days of reflection and looking at the stats:

First in person game for me this year, nice to see a full house at Hancock. Skipped cooking at the tailgate this year and took Mrs. MadBird to Green Gables for a cheeseburger and bloody for her first time. Nice to know, like pizza at Lucca's, some things stay top notch even after many years. Arrived at Hancock in time for a couple brews under the water tower.

Angrybird made me think about my opinions about the QB position, but I still agree with most that Waring "looks" like the better prospect at this point. His interceptions, at least a couple, were hard to explain, but he's got both a strong arm to put it on the dime downfield, and the soft touch needed to "dump it" for the short passes (and at least a couple of TD's if I'm remembering correctly). He's a decent physical specimen as well.

What the heck is up with the run game?? Geez, 40 net yards (even the 65 gained before losses isn't impressive at all), only 1 rushing first down. 1.3 yards per rush. Both Pha'Leak and NIgel looked halfway decent last spring, and Mueller looked half-way decent a couple weeks ago. But it ain't pretty. Our season average is okay, but we piled up the yardage vs. Butler and EIU. I'm not sure what, but have to suspect our line play is a big reason, and then as pointed out maybe our play design and/or play calling stinks? Not much creativity in that run game.

You have to like how they've spread the receptions around. Using everybody it seems. Except maybe the transfer from ND. I'd like to see more use of the RB's in the pass game - pretty decent yards per catch.

Still not sold on the defense, altho at times it seems to be a bend but don't break outfit. But Saturday, even tho MSU had twice as many run attempts as pass completions, the tackle stats had a heavy presence of D backfield in the top 10. Altho Isbell is a unique kind of safety. And the LB's played a pretty big role. Would love to see the big boys get involved more. On the season, Deming is #6 in tackles, Powell #11, Gomez #13.

Bohlken had a couple really nice punts, one 60 yds or so, the other a beautiful kick that died inside the 10. He kicked the short one from about the MSU 32 yd line, and I thought, geez why punt from there? But he placed it perfectly and pinned them down. He's a pretty decent punter for us.

Getting routed in the second half, no matter if FB or BB, makes me think you've been "out adjusted" at half time. I'm sure it's not always that simple, but it sure makes me think the opponents figger something out at half time and we haven't. I'd like to see us play the whole game, maybe that'll come along as the season goes along.

It's hard to get too jazzed up about our prospects for a winning season. This week, WIU took SIU to OT (course we had them down 17-0 in the 4th Q). I was sure looking at that as a good chance for a win on the road. North Dakota played within a TD of the Bisons. A little scary, we have to play them on the road. South Dakota trashed the Sycamores, another road game. NDSU, UNI, Sycamores at home.

 

[redbirdfan04]

Can we all agree that until you've had a cheeseburger and cheeseballs from Green Gables you have not lived life!

 

[fourthandshort]

It's a little early to say this definitively, but at this point if forced to choose who has demonstrated better combination of more upside and less downside, it is Waring. He is a little more evasive (with his feet) in the pocket than I expected. Though Jefferson is clearly better in pocket feeling and reacting to pocket pressure. Experience in the pocket should only help Waring in terms of "feeling it" and making decisions. Saturday, he took a real bad sack and made a real bad throw for pick on the run - his 2nd pick. I didn't see his 1st pick, but did see his last 2. This 3rd pick was a very well thrown ball that receiver couldn't gather himself to make a little jump (literally inches) .. so DB picked it playing behind WR in end zone, or it would have been a great TD pass.

The main issues for Jefferson relate to passing the ball under pressure. He is so good at feeling pressure and moving, but he makes too many careless passes .. some mis-thrown, some ill-advised. Again, it is too early to say this definitively for Waring. But as of this point, we have to stay with Waring and see how he develops.. especially since this isn't a playoff year.

That said, I do not rule out Jefferson completely .. he has true dual threat skills, and can be a game manager if needed. But if we have to throw it to win, and he's getting pocket pressure, he needs to learn to make much better decisions and throws under pressure.

 

[MadBird]

Fourthandshort makes good points (as always), let me add - Waring and Jefferson are both young, relatively young, have a couple years or more to develop. I believe in not writing these guys off too early. It's not too late for the light bulb to on for Jefferson. Plus which, there's always the potential for injury, a second chance, blah blah blah. Both QB's would benefit from better blocking and receiving and a better run game.

 

[redbirdfan04]

A few thoughts after a couple days of reflection and looking at the stats:

First in person game for me this year, nice to see a full house at Hancock. Skipped cooking at the tailgate this year and took Mrs. MadBird to Green Gables for a cheeseburger and bloody for her first time. Nice to know, like pizza at Lucca's, some things stay top notch even after many years. Arrived at Hancock in time for a couple brews under the water tower.

Angrybird made me think about my opinions about the QB position, but I still agree with most that Waring "looks" like the better prospect at this point. His interceptions, at least a couple, were hard to explain, but he's got both a strong arm to put it on the time downfield, and the soft touch needed to "dump it" for the short passes (and at least a couple of TD's if I'm remembering correctly). He's a decent physical specimen as well.

What the heck is up with the run game?? Geez, 40 net yards (even the 65 gained before losses isn't impressive at all), only 1 rushing first down. 1.3 yards per rush. Both Pha'Leak and NIgel looked halfway decent last spring, and Mueller looked half-way decent a couple weeks ago. But it ain't pretty. Our season average is okay, but we piled up the yardage vs. Butler and EIU. I'm not sure what, but have to suspect our line play is a big reason, and then as pointed out maybe our play design and/or play calling stinks? Not much creativity in that run game.

You have to like how they've spread the receptions around. Using everybody it seems. Except maybe the transfer from ND. I'd like to see more use of the RB's in the pass game - pretty decent yards per catch.

Still not sold on the defense, altho at times it seems to be a bend but don't break outfit. But Saturday, even tho MSU had twice as many run attempts as pass completions, the tackle stats had a heavy presence of D backfield in the top 10. Altho Isbell is a unique kind of safety. And the LB's played a pretty big role. Would love to see the big boys get involved more. On the season, Deming is #6 in tackles, Powell #11, Gomez #13.

Bohlken had a couple really nice punts, one 60 yds or so, the other a beautiful kick that died inside the 10. He kicked the short one from about the MSU 32 yd line, and I thought, geez why punt from there? But he placed it perfectly and pinned them down. He's a pretty decent punter for us.

Getting routed in the second half, no matter if FB or BB, makes me think you've been "out adjusted" at half time. I'm sure it's not always that simple, but it sure makes me think the opponents figger something out at half time and we haven't. I'd like to see us play the whole game, maybe that'll come along as the season goes along.

It's hard to get too jazzed up about our prospects for a winning season. This week, WIU took SIU to OT (course we had them down 17-0 in the 4th Q). I was sure looking at that as a good chance for a win on the road. North Dakota played within a TD of the Bisons. A little scary, we have to play them on the road. South Dakota trashed the Sycamores, another road game. NDSU, UNI, Sycamores at home.

Great reflection Mad. One thing I keep reminding myself is this is Valley football and even the weak teams can bring it. ISU is really close to winning games. This is the first time in almost a decade without a strong run game. I have all confidence in the world it will get fixed.