Would MVFC Take a DIII School?

[StLRedbird]

Fair enough, but the conference was not one big, happy family when it sponsored football. It is easy to compare the Valley with the Big East in this regard. The private, largely no-football privates have different priorities than the public, largely football playing universities. The BE split over the matter. While the Valley has had schools with football aspirations trickle out in ones and twos over the years, the last being Tulsa.

Our conference is already split MVC and MVFC. Any private joining the MVFC would be fully aware that they are joining publics and if they didn't want to join they wouldn't have to but that's not a good reason to exclude a private that does want to join.

I've got nothing against private schools. I just don't want our all sport conference to be full of anti-football privates, like it is now.

BTW, Bradley played football in the Valley until dropping the sport around 1970. I have some hazy memory of someone telling me we beat them in their last game.

 

[ChiRedbirdfan]

Fair enough, but the conference was not one big, happy family when it sponsored football. It is easy to compare the Valley with the Big East in this regard. The private, largely no-football privates have different priorities than the public, largely football playing universities. The BE split over the matter. While the Valley has had schools with football aspirations trickle out in ones and twos over the years, the last being Tulsa.

Our conference is already split MVC and MVFC. Any private joining the MVFC would be fully aware that they are joining publics and if they didn't want to join they wouldn't have to but that's not a good reason to exclude a private that does want to join.

I've got nothing against private schools. I just don't want our all sport conference to be full of anti-football privates, like it is now.

BTW, Bradley played football in the Valley until dropping the sport around 1970. I have some hazy memory of someone telling me we beat them in their last game.

The big division in the MVC is not so much private vs public rather non-football vs football. FCS football as a whole is the biggest financial loser/burden in college sports and many privates either wisely choose to not participate or choose not to offer athletic scholarships to lessen the financial burden (pioneer and Ivy). Strongly disagree with those that believe the MVFC and MVC are one and the same. Though the dollars at play magnify would only by the difference image putting half of the SEC together with half of the ACC for football only.

ISU being in this type of arrangement may have made sense in the past but given the significant fall over time in status of the MVC combined with piddly/non-existent revenue associated with being in the MVFC I truly hope ISU is weighing all long term options.

 

[ST_Lawson]

The big division in the MVC is not so much private vs public rather non-football vs football. FCS football as a whole is the biggest financial loser/burden in college sports and many privates either wisely choose to not participate or choose not to offer athletic scholarships to lessen the financial burden (pioneer and Ivy). Strongly disagree with those that believe the MVFC and MVC are one and the same. Though the dollars at play magnify would only by the difference image putting half of the SEC together with half of the ACC for football only.

ISU being in this type of arrangement may have made sense in the past but given the significant fall over time in status of the MVC combined with piddly/non-existent revenue associated with being in the MVFC I truly hope ISU is weighing all long term options.

As a "realignment junkie", what would be you guys' preferred conference situation going forward? I don't mean what is actually the most likely scenario (although you're welcome to comment on that too), but more what you guys want to see happen with ISU?
Move to FBS and join the MAC?
See the MVC converted into more of an all/mostly public school conference that includes football (possibly bringing in a few other schools...Murray State, Dakotas, etc.)?
Stay the course with the MVC being non-football and try to focus on bringing in a few good basketball schools to try to bring the conference visibility back up?
Something else entirely?

 

[fourthandshort]

lawson ... many others here have better understanding of the various issues surrounding this topic. But as much as it would be nice to go FBS, I only want to go when were ready (donors, fans, commitment, more competitive, getting IPF, etc) and then make the right decision. Not a fan of stepping stone idea, but so long as there is a logical and feasible plan, I could get behind a stepping stone G5 conference idea ... possibly.

But as we sit here today, I love being in the MVFC despite our difficulty doing better than 6-5 more consistentl than we currently do. It is THE best football in FCS .. only Colonial has the depth we do, but in the last decade, we are clearly the toip conference .. better at top and bottom, both sides of ball, etc. So I woldn't change a thing we do. In fact, I wish we stayed at 9 teams with 8 games ... play everyone once, period, So I'm not a fan of expansion. But given expansion is inevitable and we sit at 10 teams .. and we won;t go backwards, I think the next best idea is go to 12 teams with East and West Division. I do NOT like the idea that we don;t play every team every year, but this is acceptable alternative if expansion is inevitable. But I would draw hard line at 12 teams ... as if my vote matters.

And I would prefer all sports be aligned, but especially the 2 big ones ... mens & womens basketball and football. That helps the rivalries the most. BUt I would want all sports together .. which probably means, privates may not make sense. So I like MVFC a lot as is ... and love that we added the Dakotas.

My 2.5 cents ....

 

[MadBird]

Interesting info from up north. Commissioner Viverito doesn't seem too impressed with St. Thomas, even for the Pioneer League.

https://www.tommiemedia.com/news/conferences-dampen-speculation-about-tommie-footballs-future-home/

 

[redbirds2000]

I don’t think the mvfc or gateway has ever had a private institution. For that reason alone I don’t see that happening.

Do you think not having a private was intentional or just how it happened? Hard for me to find a reason as to why no private would be allowed. Nearly every major conference is made up of privates and publics. The MVFC is likely one of the few conferences that does not have a mix and I think it is more by accident than design.

Agreed that it was probably not by design. MVFC needs a 12th team to split into two divisions

West
NDSU, SDSU, USD, UND, UNI, MOST

East
ISUR, ISUB, SIU, WIU, YSU, New Guys

I guess you could move MOST into the East and put the New Guys there if you opt for a Minnesota team. MVFC West lookin' a lot like the old NCC, right?

Edit: St. Thomas was a charter member of the NCC in 1921. What comes around...

The West side would be brutal. The East? Not so much.

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[ST_Lawson]

The West side would be brutal. The East? Not so much.

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That is often the argument against this from UNI and the Dakota schools...they get NDSU and SDSU every year.

Personally I'd prefer we just find a nice home for YSU out east and leave it at that.

 

[fourthandshort]

The West side would be brutal. The East? Not so much.

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That is often the argument against this from UNI and the Dakota schools...they get NDSU and SDSU every year.

Personally I'd prefer we just find a nice home for YSU out east and leave it at that.

I would prefer that option over going to 12. But once we get to 11, I think we might as well got to 12 and do the 2 divisions. I don't like what Colonial and Big Sky have done going to 12 and 14 teams. Too many scheduling inequities. Partly for travel reasons and partly for scheduling.

Example, last season, Maine from Colonial didn't play 3 of the top 5 Colonial teams. I think with single conference, that fact gets lost in shuffle more easily when it comes to pollsters and FCS selection committee. In Big Sky, last year, UND played just 1 of the top 4 Big Sky teams. This year, EWU plays just 1 of last years top 4. No one really notices these things, when they're all lumped together.

By going to Divisions, it brings more consistency and clarity to scheduling inequities. With the proposed West MVFC Division ... everyone would know, the West has 3 perenniel tough teams and East Division usually has less. Knowing this makes it easier judge each situation with bigger conferences.

But again, I wish we had stayed with 9 teams and played 8 games ... every team once. Keeps it simple come end year.

 

[Birdswin]

The disagreements at the conference level is not entirely public vs private. Indy State is one of the biggest problems, especially when it came upgrading the basketball referee situation about 6-7 years ago. Anyhow, if it was not for Creighton casting the deciding vote of 6-4 for approval to rename the Gateway to the MVFC - it would have never happened.

There was a HUGE difference of opinion - mainly basketball related - with Creighton & Wichita State wanting to move the conference forward. But, they were met with much opposition - so they left. Now, the conference is struggling - no question about it.

What does ISU do? Well, that is the BIG $$$$ question, that the Administration or the gutless wonders on the Board of Trustees face.

 

[ChiRedbirdfan]

What does ISU do? Well, that is the BIG $$$$ question, that the Administration or the gutless wonders on the Board of Trustees face.

:text-+1: What does ISU do now could not be stated any better as there are so many moving parts and variables along with change is not always easy and sometimes can be unpleasant. ISU athletics has been in relatively the same position (or arguable less due to gradual yet overall significant fall of MVC as well as so much money coming into college sports which ISU has basically not been a part of) for the last 30 to 40 years yet the college athletic landscape has changed dramatically. ISU resides in the MVC that does not meet its needs (football) and has many members who status has fallen or has replacement members that are significantly less than those that departed. It does appear as though there are some decent opportunities to grow the top line when one compares ISU’s true athletic department revenue (total revenue less university and student fee subsidy)to other Conf athletic department revenues where ISU may have an opportunity to join. The MVC brand was worth something in the past but it has become near worthless or certainly no different than any other of the conferences that make up the have nots especially since it does not have the biggest collegiate revenue sport (which is multiples of basketball revenue). ISU is leaking significant revenue on the football side but may have to break some glass on the basketball side to get ahold of the football revenue. Again given the fall of the MVC to it’s current status it seems like we should be breaking some glass now so that ISU is better positioned in the long run. Status quo is depressing since ISU athletics was so much more relevant when I was a student

But as birdswin stated there is going to be little happening unless there is a change in leadership on the university side. Dietz is an administrator vs a leader and he has shown little interest in athletics. ISU had the right type of leadership 8 or so years ago and things were moving forward but unfortunately we fell back to maintaing the status quo type of leaders. I am excited for a new president at ISU... btw not that Dietz has been bad but he has just been administering what was already in place at ISU and to his credit he has been a good administrator, IMO. Given the real slippage in the national rankings at ISU combined with a need to have some significant decisions made on the athletic side I truly hope Dietz retires sooner than later.

 

[MadBird]

One post on the d3 football discussion board, re: Saint Thomas coming into MFVC:

I guess my take on this situation is Patty Viverito has probably had a lot of conversations with Phil Esten since #tomtoss but wants to get a feel of what some other institutions have in mind RE: adding UST.

RE: MVFC

I think the talk of UST having to build a 20,000 seat stadium is absurd. O'Shaughnessy can certainly use a few million in upgrades to the grandstand amd press box/coaches box, plus a few thousand more seats, but a 10,000 seat stadium would be plenty accommodating. I'd look at Stony Brook in NY as an example. They have a fantastic little on-campus stadium that suits them well and provides a great gameday experience for FCS, and they've been able to develop a hell of a FCS program in just the last 4 or 5 years. If $20 million got pumped into facility upgrades for football that would make what we already have pretty top-of-the-line for that level.

There are some work-arounds. Portland State essentially has two stadiums: they either play at Hillsboro stadium, a 7,000 seat municipal football stadium off-campus; or, at the 20,000 seat home of the MLS Portland Timbers.

One cautionary tale is SDSU. They thought they needed an extravagant 19,000 stadium to compete with NDSU, but have only managed to keep it half full save for the NDSU game every two years. Many have opined that 14,000 would have been plenty. USD is in the process of upgrading the Dakotadome to make it football exclusive and when that's all said-and-done they will have a very nice 9,000 seat indoor stadium with field level suites.

My guess is UND, USD, NDSU and SDSU are all on board with UST joining the MVFC as UST is joining the Summit with them and it gives the Dakota schools another school that minimizes travel. I don't see UNI as having much of an issue with it for similar travel related reasons. Youngstown and Illinois State have voiced frustration with all the travel to the Dakotas while sitting in the heart of Ohio Valley Conference, but a trip to UST isn't quite as daunting. Missouri State, Southern Illinois and Western Illinois are facing some serious budgetary concerns and are totally abysmal on the football field, so I don't think the MVFC is that far-fetched.

Sure, UST will get rolled by the Dakota schools for a few years, but I think they could get to a competitive level by the time their transition probation is over (2026 if they're treated like a D2 school transitioning).

RE: Pioneer League

At first blush it makes the most sense. Large urban private institutions that play non-scholarship football.

But many of these schools have a all flagshipped basketball in some very prestigious conferences, and if UST joins the Summit, flagshipping hoops would mean, at-best, getting a #14 seed in the NCAA tournament someday. Then you have off-campus hockey, non-scholarship football, and essentially, you're kind of nondescript athletically. Like Omaha, but with non-scholarship football to worry about.

I think UST is going to have to make some TOUGH decisions. If I had my druthers some "non-revenue generating" sports would either get cut or move off campus. I think starting up D1 hockey program without an arena is a HUGE undertaking, honestly, especially in the extremely saturated Minnesota college hockey market. Baseball would make the most sense to move off-campus as they'll play very few home games as-it-is, and they take up a HUGE amount of space, but cutting both baseball and softball wouldn't make much sense, because often times northern schools' baseball/softball programs break even or turn a small profit because they get paid to travel around the south in February and March playing SEC/ACC schools.

CockyI

 

[ChiRedbirdfan]

a 20,000 seat stadium requirement for FCS football is a great example that most often morons are too common when it comes to who sets guidelines or makes decisions in college athletics. It is especially ridiculous in this day and age when many people prefer to watch the game from afar via streaming/cable/satellite viewing options

 

[cpacmel]

 

[MadBird]

Media and discussion board talk seems to have settled on Pioneer League as okay for now, but every now and then people still say the ultimate goal is MVFC. We'll see.

Consensus of fans on the D3 discussion board is that they will be instantly "competitive" in the Pioneer.

 

[MadBird]

Recent post on D3 football discussion board re: St. Thomas getting into the MVFC:

Quote from: jamtod on Today at 02:07:38 pm

The Summit vs MVFC comparisons hold some weight but are also comparing apples to oranges.
Since MVFC is FCS, they are a big fish in a small pond of schools that exclude the largest D1 schools, and even the G5 participants.
Summit League is a small fish in the big pond of all of D1.

The MIAC is to D3 (to a lesser extent because the WIAC exists) what the MVFC is to D1.

It's still going to be a big step in the future, but it's not out of the question, particularly when 5 of the 9 current Summit League conference mates are also among the 11 MVFC schools.

Exactly. If it's one thing schools like, it's continuity. People act like the MVFC is this sacred cow...it's not. Youngstown is in all likelihood leaving for the Ohio Valley and Western Illinois was sucking wind financially before COVID even happened. Missouri State has already been rumored to cut football before COVID, and now they probably lost their big money game with Oklahoma. The MVFC is going to look very different in 5 to 10 years. Northern Colorado will probably join, and few schools will leave. UST is not going to be even remotely close to the same thing in 10 years. Nobody predicted where they'd get in 2008, either. Things change. Especially when you're swimming in money.

So, I wonder if this genius knows something I/we don't - YSU and WIU out, MSU out, No.Colorado in?

 

[Virginia Redbird]

Recent post on D3 football discussion board re: St. Thomas getting into the MVFC:


FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

So, I wonder if this genius knows something I/we don't - YSU and WIU out, MSU out, No.Colorado in?

I have no information on this at all. I do think there are going to be some major changes in the next year or two across all of college football. Lots of lost revenue and the budget for most FCS schools is tight to begin with. The Group of 5 is not much different. Schools like NIU may consider themselves among the big boys but they have no where near the deep pockets of the Power 5. How it all shakes out I don't know but I think it is almost inevitable that some big changes are coming.

 

[MadBird]

I have no information on this at all. I do think there are going to be some major changes in the next year or two across all of college football. Lots of lost revenue and the budget for most FCS schools is tight to begin with. The Group of 5 is not much different. Schools like NIU may consider themselves among the big boys but they have no where near the deep pockets of the Power 5. How it all shakes out I don't know but I think it is almost inevitable that some big changes are coming.

Yes, changes probably are coming, but, you know, how does a DIII private school with a DIII stadium seating 5000 move up to FCS and compete with the MVFC? How does that work? And why are the broader changes being tossed around, schools cutting sports, etc. not seen as "temporary", just getting through the coronavirus era, and then we go back to "normal" next year or the year after? I don't get it.

 

[ISUBU]

Yes, changes probably are coming, but, you know, how does a DIII private school with a DIII stadium seating 5000 move up to FCS and compete with the MVFC? How does that work? And why are the broader changes being tossed around, schools cutting sports, etc. not seen as "temporary", just getting through the coronavirus era, and then we go back to "normal" next year or the year after? I don't get it.

I think St. Thomas will stay in the Pioneer league. By going D-I they will have to newly fund scholarships in something like 14 sports, male and female combined. That's with relatively few changes in football funding. Football travel will be higher. The 126 scholarships needed to compete in the MVFC are a long ways away...so the Pioneer is a good home. Do they have more resources than Dayton? The Pioneer has been Dayton's home for a long time.

Schools across the country have been overspending on athletics. The big drop in revenue since March will be very painful. Even the richest schools are making cuts. Stanford's cuts simply bring them more in line with their peers in the number of sports they sponsor. It's been a long decline, decades, in which more sports are cut rather than added.

 

[Virginia Redbird]

I did not know very much about St Thomas at all. I did some reading and they have been a very strong team. Their coach has developed a strong program. It will be interesting to see how they adapt to FCS. St Thomas did not have much choice to make a change since they were voted out of their previous conference but this would not seem to be a great time for this type of move. Established programs are having budget problems. I think they would have had a difficult time competing in the MVFC at least, to begin with. In the Pioneer they probably have a much better chance of quick success. Their coach sounds like a piece of work though. According to the stories, I read he had a habit of being up over 40 points and kept pouring on as much as he could. I am not saying coast when you have a big lead but on sidekicks, trick plays, and 2 point conversions when leading by 40-50 points...he just sounds like a jerk.