Progression of Redbird Basketball

[Adunk33]

A lot of people are down and upset with the inconsistency of this team. It has been maddening all season that the team can win big games like basically at South Carolina and at Ole Miss, and showed poise picking up some close wins. But then we give games away like Charleston Southern, at SIU or Loyola. But Redbirds will be Redbirds.

Someone in another thread posted the media guide for this season. I have spent some time thumbing through it and found something interesting. Many posters were upset when Jank left however, Jank's record as HC here through five seasons was 104-64 playing 10-12 bad teams in the non-con each season. Muller through his fifth season is 104-65, one more loss against a much, much tougher schedule.

Believe in Muller and give it time. I know the older posters will say "We've been waiting 20 years!" Exactly. So what is another year or two? I fully believe the Redbirds will dance this year or next year.

If you get a chance, watch Muller's press conference from Monday. Benson asks him about the transfer rules, and obviously it is brought up that he has had a great deal of transfers. Muller basically said that he believes he has largely fixed that problem with this team. He pointed to things he did as a coach over that time that may not have been the best and he has adjusted. He also sites that most players think about transferring. From himself, to Paris Lee. He finally has his first recruiting class all the way through the system and has had the opportunity to build the culture he wants. Building a culture takes time, and Muller has done that. Since he has established his expectations he is working on getting every member of the team to buy in. When one of the most talented guys on the team is struggling to buy in, that is a set back. I think it will all click soon.

Sure, we have not seen the success we would like on the court, especially this season, but we'll put it together and get hot. Muller's teams are notorious for putting it together the latter half of the MVC season. Over the last 5 seasons in the last 12 games of MVC play, Muller's teams are 41-19 (not including the MVC tournament.) If you take away the polar opposites (5-7 in 2013-14 and 11-1 in 2016-17) that still puts us at 25-11. Not bad numbers there. We are not a Thursday night team. Its hard for me to see us losing at home the rest of the season, but who knows with this team. If we can win out at home and pick up a few on the road (@Bradley, @Valpo) that'll put us at 11-7 and probably the 2-4 seed.

Patience is a virtue, my friends. If we don't dance in the this or next year....feel free to point your frustrations at me for perhaps showing you a glimmer of hope. Looking forward to another peak of this roller coaster of a season!

 

[CaliRdBrd]

A lot of people are down and upset with the inconsistency of this team. It has been maddening all season that the team can win big games like basically at South Carolina and at Ole Miss, and showed poise picking up some close wins. But then we give games away like Charleston Southern, at SIU or Loyola. But Redbirds will be Redbirds.

Someone in another thread posted the media guide for this season. I have spent some time thumbing through it and found something interesting. Many posters were upset when Jank left however, Jank's record as HC here through five seasons was 104-64 playing 10-12 bad teams in the non-con each season. Muller through his fifth season is 104-65, one more loss against a much, much tougher schedule.

Believe in Muller and give it time. I know the older posters will say "We've been waiting 20 years!" Exactly. So what is another year or two? I fully believe the Redbirds will dance this year or next year.

If you get a chance, watch Muller's press conference from Monday. Benson asks him about the transfer rules, and obviously it is brought up that he has had a great deal of transfers. Muller basically said that he believes he has largely fixed that problem with this team. He pointed to things he did as a coach over that time that may not have been the best and he has adjusted. He also sites that most players think about transferring. From himself, to Paris Lee. He finally has his first recruiting class all the way through the system and has had the opportunity to build the culture he wants. Building a culture takes time, and Muller has done that. Since he has established his expectations he is working on getting every member of the team to buy in. When one of the most talented guys on the team is struggling to buy in, that is a set back. I think it will all click soon.

Sure, we have not seen the success we would like on the court, especially this season, but we'll put it together and get hot. Muller's teams are notorious for putting it together the latter half of the MVC season. Over the last 5 seasons in the last 12 games of MVC play, Muller's teams are 41-19 (not including the MVC tournament.) If you take away the polar opposites (5-7 in 2013-14 and 11-1 in 2016-17) that still puts us at 25-11. Not bad numbers there. We are not a Thursday night team. Its hard for me to see us losing at home the rest of the season, but who knows with this team. If we can win out at home and pick up a few on the road (@Bradley, @Valpo) that'll put us at 11-7 and probably the 2-4 seed.

Patience is a virtue, my friends. If we don't dance in the this or next year....feel free to point your frustrations at me for perhaps showing you a glimmer of hope. Looking forward to another peak of this roller coaster of a season!

i get the tougher scheduling, and am glad. However, exactly what is the culture he’s built?

 

[Adunk33]

We'll know more after this season if players transfer out or not. But the culture I'm referring to is one where its Muller's way or the highway. The Muller cares about the program more than Jank ever did. He wants the program to move forward and be in a better place than when he left it. Jank just cared about getting his W's and moving on. Muller obviously had to take risks on some potentially questionable character guys in his first few years but it seems the whole team is high character now. Malik is the only player that has been suspended this year and it was because he wasn't buying into the culture.

I realize it's sad that we say, "only one suspension this year!" But that is a vast improvement from years past. In my interactions with this team, it seems like a group of high character guys, good grades, and good members of the community. Taylor, Elijah, Chastain, Hein, Keyshawn, Boogie, David, Zach, Phil, Luke, and Ike. All of these guys are good teammates. Milik will get there, and I haven't seen enough from Romine to say.

Putting a "culture" into words is tough, its often intangible and one of those things you know when you see.

 

[chuckie1980]

Thank you...and I totally agree.

 

[ricohill]

We'll know more after this season if players transfer out or not. But the culture I'm referring to is one where its Muller's way or the highway. The Muller cares about the program more than Jank ever did. He wants the program to move forward and be in a better place than when he left it. Jank just cared about getting his W's and moving on. Muller obviously had to take risks on some potentially questionable character guys in his first few years but it seems the whole team is high character now. Malik is the only player that has been suspended this year and it was because he wasn't buying into the culture.

I realize it's sad that we say, "only one suspension this year!" But that is a vast improvement from years past. In my interactions with this team, it seems like a group of high character guys, good grades, and good members of the community. Taylor, Elijah, Chastain, Hein, Keyshawn, Boogie, David, Zach, Phil, Luke, and Ike. All of these guys are good teammates. Milik will get there, and I haven't seen enough from Romine to say.

Putting a "culture" into words is tough, its often intangible and one of those things you know when you see.

The only problem I see with the Muller's way or the highway is when they open up the transfer rules (which is going to happen at some point), is you can't keep treating kids like he does and expect them to stay. It's not just Muller, but coaches are going to have to adjust and work to keep kids. The days of Muller and Stallings are fading fast in college sports.

 

[DWRedbird]

We'll know more after this season if players transfer out or not. But the culture I'm referring to is one where its Muller's way or the highway. The Muller cares about the program more than Jank ever did. He wants the program to move forward and be in a better place than when he left it. Jank just cared about getting his W's and moving on. Muller obviously had to take risks on some potentially questionable character guys in his first few years but it seems the whole team is high character now. Malik is the only player that has been suspended this year and it was because he wasn't buying into the culture.

I realize it's sad that we say, "only one suspension this year!" But that is a vast improvement from years past. In my interactions with this team, it seems like a group of high character guys, good grades, and good members of the community. Taylor, Elijah, Chastain, Hein, Keyshawn, Boogie, David, Zach, Phil, Luke, and Ike. All of these guys are good teammates. Milik will get there, and I haven't seen enough from Romine to say.

Putting a "culture" into words is tough, its often intangible and one of those things you know when you see.

The only problem I see with the Muller's way or the highway is when they open up the transfer rules (which is going to happen at some point), is you can't keep treating kids like he does and expect them to stay. It's not just Muller, but coaches are going to have to adjust and work to keep kids. The days of Muller and Stallings are fading fast in college sports.

I don't think it is the culture of Muller's way or the highway, but I think that Muller is instilling in his guys that they always have to work hard and give 100%. He is not going to let anyone slack off, no matter how good you are, if you don't bust your rump Muller is going to take you out. Most players get that, and respect it. A few don't. I think Milik is having a hard time with that this year because he is used to coaches bending to his will because he is the most talented player on the floor 9 times out of 10. Muller won't bend. He's not a Tyrant, but he expects a lot of all his players. From what I've heard from those around the program, the players genuinely like and respect Muller, so in my opinion I don't see them transferring to get away from him.

In my opinion, a majority of our players aren't transferring and won't transfer because Muller is tough on them. Most will transfer because they think they have a better opportunity (for playing time, draft recognition, etc..), or due to outside influences getting in their ear. I think the latter will be far more prevalent at all mid-major schools if the new transfer rule passes.

 

[ricohill]

I don't think it is the culture of Muller's way or the highway, but I think that Muller is instilling in his guys that they always have to work hard and give 100%. He is not going to let anyone slack off, no matter how good you are, if you don't bust your rump Muller is going to take you out. Most players get that, and respect it. A few don't. I think Milik is having a hard time with that this year because he is used to coaches bending to his will because he is the most talented player on the floor 9 times out of 10. Muller won't bend. He's not a Tyrant, but he expects a lot of all his players. From what I've heard from those around the program, the players genuinely like and respect Muller, so in my opinion I don't see them transferring to get away from him.

In my opinion, a majority of our players aren't transferring and won't transfer because Muller is tough on them. Most will transfer because they think they have a better opportunity (for playing time, draft recognition, etc..), or due to outside influences getting in their ear. I think the latter will be far more prevalent at all mid-major schools if the new transfer rule passes.

I also, am a believer that the transfer rule isn't all doom and gloom like Barry, Moser, and Muller make it out to be. I think the P5 schools are going to try to steal players from each other before they start trying to poach guys from mid-major schools.

 

[Redbirdfan06]

We'll know more after this season if players transfer out or not. But the culture I'm referring to is one where its Muller's way or the highway. The Muller cares about the program more than Jank ever did. He wants the program to move forward and be in a better place than when he left it. Jank just cared about getting his W's and moving on. Muller obviously had to take risks on some potentially questionable character guys in his first few years but it seems the whole team is high character now. Malik is the only player that has been suspended this year and it was because he wasn't buying into the culture.

I realize it's sad that we say, "only one suspension this year!" But that is a vast improvement from years past. In my interactions with this team, it seems like a group of high character guys, good grades, and good members of the community. Taylor, Elijah, Chastain, Hein, Keyshawn, Boogie, David, Zach, Phil, Luke, and Ike. All of these guys are good teammates. Milik will get there, and I haven't seen enough from Romine to say.

Putting a "culture" into words is tough, its often intangible and one of those things you know when you see.

The only problem I see with the Muller's way or the highway is when they open up the transfer rules (which is going to happen at some point), is you can't keep treating kids like he does and expect them to stay. It's not just Muller, but coaches are going to have to adjust and work to keep kids. The days of Muller and Stallings are fading fast in college sports.

I don't think it is the culture of Muller's way or the highway, but I think that Muller is instilling in his guys that they always have to work hard and give 100%. He is not going to let anyone slack off, no matter how good you are, if you don't bust your rump Muller is going to take you out. Most players get that, and respect it. A few don't. I think Milik is having a hard time with that this year because he is used to coaches bending to his will because he is the most talented player on the floor 9 times out of 10. Muller won't bend. He's not a Tyrant, but he expects a lot of all his players. From what I've heard from those around the program, the players genuinely like and respect Muller, so in my opinion I don't see them transferring to get away from him.

In my opinion, a majority of our players aren't transferring and won't transfer because Muller is tough on them. Most will transfer because they think they have a better opportunity (for playing time, draft recognition, etc..), or due to outside influences getting in their ear. I think the latter will be far more prevalent at all mid-major schools if the new transfer rule passes.

I don’t think the slu coaches bent to Milik when he went from a10 all freshmen team playing 24 minutes a game to a guy that started 2 games and played 19 minutes a game as a sophomore.

 

[KenM]

Pastor says a loss is a win in the eyes of the Lord. Have a blessed day

 

[DWRedbird]

The only problem I see with the Muller's way or the highway is when they open up the transfer rules (which is going to happen at some point), is you can't keep treating kids like he does and expect them to stay. It's not just Muller, but coaches are going to have to adjust and work to keep kids. The days of Muller and Stallings are fading fast in college sports.

I don't think it is the culture of Muller's way or the highway, but I think that Muller is instilling in his guys that they always have to work hard and give 100%. He is not going to let anyone slack off, no matter how good you are, if you don't bust your rump Muller is going to take you out. Most players get that, and respect it. A few don't. I think Milik is having a hard time with that this year because he is used to coaches bending to his will because he is the most talented player on the floor 9 times out of 10. Muller won't bend. He's not a Tyrant, but he expects a lot of all his players. From what I've heard from those around the program, the players genuinely like and respect Muller, so in my opinion I don't see them transferring to get away from him.

In my opinion, a majority of our players aren't transferring and won't transfer because Muller is tough on them. Most will transfer because they think they have a better opportunity (for playing time, draft recognition, etc..), or due to outside influences getting in their ear. I think the latter will be far more prevalent at all mid-major schools if the new transfer rule passes.

I don’t think the slu coaches bent to Milik when he went from a10 all freshmen team playing 24 minutes a game to a guy that started 2 games and played 19 minutes a game as a sophomore.

I wouldn't call a drop of 4 minutes them being tough on him either. Regardless, my point is, we can probably look at Milik's "tension" with Muller as him adjusting to Muller's expectations for him.

 

[ricohill]

One my issues with the progression of the program has been recruiting. You really have a drop off after Ford and Ward were on the staff.

This list isn't probably 100 percent accurate because I was in a hurry.

Ward and Ford Top Recruits:
Paris Lee
Dashion Knight
Mikyle Mcintosh
Tony Wills
Reggie Lynch (despite off court issues was a good player)
Teddy Hawkins
Akoon-Purcell

Post Ward and Ford Top Recruits:
Evans
Fayne
Yarbrough
-Potentially Copeland and Clarance

There seems to be a huge drop off since the first couple recruiting classes.

 

[Adunk33]

One my issues with the progression of the program has been recruiting. You really have a drop off after Ford and Ward were on the staff.

This list isn't probably 100 percent accurate because I was in a hurry.

Ward and Ford Top Recruits:
Paris Lee
Dashion Knight
Mikyle Mcintosh
Tony Wills
Reggie Lynch (despite off court issues was a good player)
Teddy Hawkins
Akoon-Purcell

Post Ward and Ford Top Recruits:
Evans
Fayne
Yarbrough
-Potentially Copeland and Clarance

There seems to be a huge drop off since the first couple recruiting classes.

Chastain, Madison, and Taylor. Post Ward/Ford we haven't had a ton of freshman. We haven't had a need for it with such a strong core of Tony, Mikyle, Paris, and Deontae, we just needed to be able to plug and play. Alas, Knight, and Akoon-Purcell were used for that. ( I will never give Reggie Lynch a pass. Off court issues like his completely eliminate anything on the court accolades.) As previously mentioned, because of that core of players, it was hard for incoming recruits to see the floor. Hence the transfers of guys like Elvis Harvey, or Andre Washington. Roland Griffin could have been good but had some other issues.

I think they current young guys on the team, Elijah, Ike, Madison, and Taylor to name a few, along with Rey coming in next season, we'll be singing a different tune with recruits. I think right now we have the second most talent we have had in Muller's tenure. We currently have Muller's best recruited player (Milik) and the best Muller recruited big (Fayne.) Just need to put it together.

 

[Redbird Alum 2004]

A lot of people are down and upset with the inconsistency of this team. It has been maddening all season that the team can win big games like basically at South Carolina and at Ole Miss, and showed poise picking up some close wins. But then we give games away like Charleston Southern, at SIU or Loyola. But Redbirds will be Redbirds.

Someone in another thread posted the media guide for this season. I have spent some time thumbing through it and found something interesting. Many posters were upset when Jank left however, Jank's record as HC here through five seasons was 104-64 playing 10-12 bad teams in the non-con each season. Muller through his fifth season is 104-65, one more loss against a much, much tougher schedule.

Believe in Muller and give it time. I know the older posters will say "We've been waiting 20 years!" Exactly. So what is another year or two? I fully believe the Redbirds will dance this year or next year.

If you get a chance, watch Muller's press conference from Monday. Benson asks him about the transfer rules, and obviously it is brought up that he has had a great deal of transfers. Muller basically said that he believes he has largely fixed that problem with this team. He pointed to things he did as a coach over that time that may not have been the best and he has adjusted. He also sites that most players think about transferring. From himself, to Paris Lee. He finally has his first recruiting class all the way through the system and has had the opportunity to build the culture he wants. Building a culture takes time, and Muller has done that. Since he has established his expectations he is working on getting every member of the team to buy in. When one of the most talented guys on the team is struggling to buy in, that is a set back. I think it will all click soon.

Sure, we have not seen the success we would like on the court, especially this season, but we'll put it together and get hot. Muller's teams are notorious for putting it together the latter half of the MVC season. Over the last 5 seasons in the last 12 games of MVC play, Muller's teams are 41-19 (not including the MVC tournament.) If you take away the polar opposites (5-7 in 2013-14 and 11-1 in 2016-17) that still puts us at 25-11. Not bad numbers there. We are not a Thursday night team. Its hard for me to see us losing at home the rest of the season, but who knows with this team. If we can win out at home and pick up a few on the road (@Bradley, @Valpo) that'll put us at 11-7 and probably the 2-4 seed.

Patience is a virtue, my friends. If we don't dance in the this or next year....feel free to point your frustrations at me for perhaps showing you a glimmer of hope. Looking forward to another peak of this roller coaster of a season!

I thought it was interesting that Muller seemed adamant during that conversation that next year he will have his whole team back. Maybe he saw the Milik rumors in here.

 

[ThisIsTheLineup]

One my issues with the progression of the program has been recruiting. You really have a drop off after Ford and Ward were on the staff.

This list isn't probably 100 percent accurate because I was in a hurry.

Ward and Ford Top Recruits:
Paris Lee
Dashion Knight
Mikyle Mcintosh
Tony Wills
Reggie Lynch (despite off court issues was a good player)
Teddy Hawkins
Akoon-Purcell

Post Ward and Ford Top Recruits:
Evans
Fayne
Yarbrough
-Potentially Copeland and Clarance

There seems to be a huge drop off since the first couple recruiting classes.

Are you basing recruiting on talent or basing it on success of said recruits? Not agreeing or disagreeing, just curious!

 

[dpdoughbird06]

Muller also referenced at the coaches show that Mikyle came close to leaving two years ago. I'm not sure you can say with any certainty what Milik will do at year's end. I'm sure academics, NBA scouts' opinion of his projectability the rest of the way, and how we finish the season as a team (see: did we cut down any nets?) will factor into his decision.

But I agree that the culture seems to be where Muller wants it; the guys genuinely like each other and he now has a heavy Central IL flavor to help the recruits from far away maybe feel a little more at home here.

 

[IHateWSU]

First off, I think Akoon-Purcell was vastly OVER-RATED!

Next, I like what Muller is doing and agree with Adunk, I believe we will be dancing in the next few years. Muller does what I expect any coach to do, that is to demand 100% effort at all times. That is a "culture" that is desired by all programs. I love the discipline. It will pay off in the long road. I want MULLER running the team, not the players!

Side note: I think our one suspension this year was for being late for a meeting.

 

[ISU FAN 1]

Putting a "culture" into words is tough, its often intangible and one of those things you know when you see.

Difficult to define and measure. Precisely why it's on every coach's list of platitudes. Can't really be held to account, because nobody really knows what the hell they are talking about. Coach speak drivel.

 

[ricohill]

One my issues with the progression of the program has been recruiting. You really have a drop off after Ford and Ward were on the staff.

This list isn't probably 100 percent accurate because I was in a hurry.

Ward and Ford Top Recruits:
Paris Lee
Dashion Knight
Mikyle Mcintosh
Tony Wills
Reggie Lynch (despite off court issues was a good player)
Teddy Hawkins
Akoon-Purcell

Post Ward and Ford Top Recruits:
Evans
Fayne
Yarbrough
-Potentially Copeland and Clarance

There seems to be a huge drop off since the first couple recruiting classes.

Are you basing recruiting on talent or basing it on success of said recruits? Not agreeing or disagreeing, just curious!

Wasn't bashing talent, just making an observation that we seemed to have more "impact" type players early on in Muller's tenure and now it seems like its slowed down since Dana and Torrey were gone. I'm not sure it's all Muller since assistants do most of the work. I think it's more that we had Ford, Ward, and Yak recruiting and the last few years it was pretty much Yak only for a variety of reasons.

 

[Adunk33]

One my issues with the progression of the program has been recruiting. You really have a drop off after Ford and Ward were on the staff.

This list isn't probably 100 percent accurate because I was in a hurry.

Ward and Ford Top Recruits:
Paris Lee
Dashion Knight
Mikyle Mcintosh
Tony Wills
Reggie Lynch (despite off court issues was a good player)
Teddy Hawkins
Akoon-Purcell

Post Ward and Ford Top Recruits:
Evans
Fayne
Yarbrough
-Potentially Copeland and Clarance

There seems to be a huge drop off since the first couple recruiting classes.

Are you basing recruiting on talent or basing it on success of said recruits? Not agreeing or disagreeing, just curious!

Wasn't bashing talent, just making an observation that we seemed to have more "impact" type players early on in Muller's tenure and now it seems like its slowed down since Dana and Torrey were gone.

How does this make sense to measure? We are less than 1 year removed from 4 of the players you mentioned leaving the University? Just because we haven't had the same success as last season we aren't recruiting "impact players"? Evans and Fayne sat behind the Big 4 last year and are really getting their chance this season. Milik had to sit out. I think outside of Evans, Milik and Phil that we will look back in a few years and see a significant amount of "impact players" on the roster.

 

[Metamoron]

One my issues with the progression of the program has been recruiting. You really have a drop off after Ford and Ward were on the staff.

This list isn't probably 100 percent accurate because I was in a hurry

Ward and Ford Top Recruits:
Paris Lee
Dashion Knight
Mikyle Mcintosh
Tony Wills
Reggie Lynch (despite off court issues was a good player)
Teddy Hawkins
Akoon-Purcell

Post Ward and Ford Top Recruits:
Evans
Fayne
Yarbrough
-Potentially Copeland and Clarance

There seems to be a huge drop off since the first couple recruiting classes.

Are you basing recruiting on talent or basing it on success of said recruits? Not agreeing or disagreeing, just curious!

Wasn't bashing talent, just making an observation that we seemed to have more "impact" type players early on in Muller's tenure and now it seems like its slowed down since Dana and Torrey were gone. I'm not sure it's all Muller since assistants do most of the work. I think it's more that we had Ford, Ward, and Yak recruiting and the last few years it was pretty much Yak only for a variety of reasons.

Not fair to compare seniors to underclassmen.

Wait until their careers at ISU are over then compare.