Muller and Lyons

[ricohill]

What I find interesting is a lot of the Jank haters are now Muller supporters. Record and success is pretty much the same except the 16-17 season. 5 of Muller's 7 seasons are probably going to be under 20 wins. I think most of the arguments for Lyons and Muller are based on emotional appeal (friends with Larry or remember the glory days of Dan as a player).

Plus, for those that don't remember what the standard of excellence was at ISU.

Donewald -
85-86 - 15-14 9-7 - MVC Tournament Semi
86-87 - 19-13 7-7 - MVC Tournament Semi won 2 NIT Games
87-88 - 18-13 9-5 - MVC Champ Game - NIT

Had a bad 88-89 season and got fired (obviously there is more to it than record), but back in the day those results weren't good enough. Now they are worthy of a contract extension.

And many, including Bobby Knight, didn't think he should be fired. Not a good example.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1989-03-15-8903270138-story.html

3 NCAA Tournaments, 6 trips to post-season in 11 years, 2 MVC Championships, 2 NCAA Tournament wins, worst finish in MVC play was 5th, ranked in the AP poll, graduated his players and had very few off court issues. Terrible example.

 

[RicoBryson]

You guys are wanting to fire someone after a team gets beat on a miracle buzzer beater twice in one season, and had that not happened we'd be at the top of the conference.

I get your Sweet 16 expectations... I share them as well... but these reactions are laughable right now.

Last nights loss was far more than a miracle buzzer beater. Never should have been in that position.

 

[SgtHulka]

What I find interesting is a lot of the Jank haters are now Muller supporters. Record and success is pretty much the same except the 16-17 season. 5 of Muller's 7 seasons are probably going to be under 20 wins. I think most of the arguments for Lyons and Muller are based on emotional appeal (friends with Larry or remember the glory days of Dan as a player).

Plus, for those that don't remember what the standard of excellence was at ISU.

Donewald -
85-86 - 15-14 9-7 - MVC Tournament Semi
86-87 - 19-13 7-7 - MVC Tournament Semi won 2 NIT Games
87-88 - 18-13 9-5 - MVC Champ Game - NIT

Had a bad 88-89 season and got fired (obviously there is more to it than record), but back in the day those results weren't good enough. Now they are worthy of a contract extension.

And many, including Bobby Knight, didn't think he should be fired. Not a good example.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1989-03-15-8903270138-story.html

3 NCAA Tournaments, 6 trips to post-season in 11 years, 2 MVC Championships, 2 NCAA Tournament wins, worst finish in MVC play was 5th, ranked in the AP poll, graduated his players and had very few off court issues. Terrible example.

Wore out his welcome with his personality, especially after the AD change. Translate his record to today and he's likely got a long extension as well.

 

[gobirds85]

My thoughts:

I like Larry Lyons. I think he’s a gentleman who is doing the job the best way that he knows how. But, I would prefer that we go a different, more progressive direction, when he is ready to leave. I want to see as much effort as possible in getting students to games, even if it means athletics pushing the university to get a fee added to tuition to cover the costs of getting students into games at no cost with a student ID. I want to see athletics engage our huge local businesses (Country and State Farm) and try to get new residents of the BN area involved in Redbird sports. New employees to those two businesses get 4 tickets to any game free. Build that hometown team culture.

As for Dan Muller, I also like him as a person. I think he wants what’s best for the program. I think he understands that he’s a coach at a midmajor and that he needs to take risks that other coaches won’t take. I have two complaints with Dan. The first is the lack of an NCAA appearance. We just can’t get over that hump. The second is off the court legal troubles. When we graduated PLee, Tony Wills, Javaka Thompson and Deontae Hawkins, 3 of the 4 of them had prior DUI arrests. That’s simply unacceptable and we haven’t been discussed Milik yet. That being said, I am willing to give Dan the rest of his contract to see if he can get us over that hump.

Firing someone, in my opinion, means that they’re doing such a terrible job that they’re doing irreparable harm to a program. Barb Smith deserved to be fired. But I don’t think Lyons or Muller deserve to be.

Firing or not renewing an employee could also mean that they weren't getting the job done and that it is time for a change. It is my honest opinion that we are stuck with Dan until his contract runs it's course. If this happens then this year might look like lollipops and unicorns as we lose a lot from a fairly mediocre team.

I am not positive so maybe someone can chime in here, but I believe lyon's contract is up this year? Anyone with knowledge? Bueller? But if this is the case then, time to get a cardboard box for him. I would love to hear his explanation on why he gave Dan such a one sided extension.

I think Lyons will be around for 2 to 3 more years from my sources. At this point he can't really hurt the program any more, other than not progress it forward.

CRAP!!!!!!!! Really?!?!?!? 2-3 years of our tax $$$ going to pay this guy?!??? Son of a bitch!!!

 

[ISU FAN 1]

No such thing as MVC team truly being in any legitimate at large discussion under any scenario. That ship has sailed. MVC is a one bid league, just like all the other shitbag bottom feeder leagues. It’s Win on Sunday, or bust.

If your referring to only this season then your missing the point. If your referring to the MVC going forward you are simply wrong. This would be the first year an MVC team isn't being considered for an at large bid.

It ended the day we were 27-5 and co champs yet didn’t make it. The writing is on the wall. It’s a P5 Dance.

 

[Redbirdwarrior]

Even with this down season, if for any reason Dan Muller becomes a free agent in the next 2 years, he is going to a major conference. Might not be a homerun program in a major conference, but a major conference nonetheless. We are getting a bargain on this coach right now. I know that is hard to swallow after watching the end of the last game, but you really really are. He has 20+ years of coaching left in him.

 

[RedbirdFan2323]

Let me get this out of the way ... Dan seems like a great guy. I was excited for him to come back to his former team, under the Jedi training of Mr. Stallings in order to coach the Redbirds. However, let's get back to reality now:

1. Success in the valley is making it to the NCAA tournament. I get that he has had good seasons in the regular season, but that doesn't matter if you can't make it to the big dance every once in a while. You've got to be able to close. Last appearance as of 1998 is unacceptable for a program of our caliber.
2. He has more on the court/off the court drama with his players than any coach I have watched. Troubles with the law, top players that transfer, head cases, top players sulking, more good talent transferring. Maybe he is not the leader we all want him to be.
3. His under 2 minute coaching baffles me. Lots of other people have pointed this out if you look back at past threads of games. Most recently the timeout at the end of the MSU game. My god...just football pass the ball in bounds down the court to someone who can catch...it isn't rocket science.
4. Most of you would be voting him off the island if he wasn't a former player that we all personally like. But, it isn't personal ... it is a business. If we don't get to the NCAA tournament this year - It is time to go another direction.

 

[gobirds85]

Even with this down season, if for any reason Dan Muller becomes a free agent in the next 2 years, he is going to a major conference. Might not be a homerun program in a major conference, but a major conference nonetheless. We are getting a bargain on this coach right now. I know that is hard to swallow after watching the end of the last game, but you really really are. He has 20+ years of coaching left in him.

I think it's hard to swallow after watching us get whacked around all season long. I, like many, bought into all the preseason hype.

He will make his way onto the bench of a P6 school as an assistant, but don't these elusive P6 schools take guys from non-P6 schools that have made a run or two into March? No one came calling for jimmy "one hit wonder" worthless at bu when he made a sweet 16 run and please, correct me if I'm wrong but was Porter's phone ringing off the hook after last year's Final Four run?

What makes anyone think that Muller will get the call when he has none of these accomplishments on his resume?

 

[goredbirds4]

I think people need to step back and realize how successful he has been here at ISU and that we are a mid major school. Also, keep in mind we are in first place if those 2 half court shots don't drop. People are acting like Bradley fans did calling for the head of Jim Les and look where they are now as a program? I'm OK being a perennial top 3 Valley school, occasionally on the NCAA at large bubble and a regular in the conference championship game. That is what Dan has brought to this program. Sure we've had some bad luck and poor execution on the big games but let's not pretend like firing Muller and rolling the dice on a new coach is our best option right now.

Successful?? Success is making the dance... and he hasn't done that.

 

[ricohill]

I think people need to step back and realize how successful he has been here at ISU and that we are a mid major school. Also, keep in mind we are in first place if those 2 half court shots don't drop. People are acting like Bradley fans did calling for the head of Jim Les and look where they are now as a program? I'm OK being a perennial top 3 Valley school, occasionally on the NCAA at large bubble and a regular in the conference championship game. That is what Dan has brought to this program. Sure we've had some bad luck and poor execution on the big games but let's not pretend like firing Muller and rolling the dice on a new coach is our best option right now.

Successful?? Success is making the dance... and he hasn't done that.

Fielding a team and putting them in jersey's seems to be the bar of excellence right now.

 

[RedbirdMan]

Even with this down season, if for any reason Dan Muller becomes a free agent in the next 2 years, he is going to a major conference. Might not be a homerun program in a major conference, but a major conference nonetheless. We are getting a bargain on this coach right now. I know that is hard to swallow after watching the end of the last game, but you really really are. He has 20+ years of coaching left in him.

This is maybe the most insane thing I’ve read on this board. He barely barrrrrelyy got a look by crap programs when they went 27-5. Now having seen that he has only gotten worse since his assistants left he is not going to get a look at anywhere at the level you suggest. Low major bound if ISU can ever nut up and get rid of this moron.

 

[RedbirdFan2323]

Even with this down season, if for any reason Dan Muller becomes a free agent in the next 2 years, he is going to a major conference. Might not be a homerun program in a major conference, but a major conference nonetheless. We are getting a bargain on this coach right now. I know that is hard to swallow after watching the end of the last game, but you really really are. He has 20+ years of coaching left in him.

This is maybe the most insane thing I’ve read on this board. He barely barrrrrelyy got a look by crap programs when they went 27-5. Now having seen that he has only gotten worse since his assistants left he is not going to get a look at anywhere at the level you suggest. Low major bound if ISU can ever nut up and get rid of this moron.

This ^^ :text-+1:

 

[Redbirdwarrior]

Even with this down season, if for any reason Dan Muller becomes a free agent in the next 2 years, he is going to a major conference. Might not be a homerun program in a major conference, but a major conference nonetheless. We are getting a bargain on this coach right now. I know that is hard to swallow after watching the end of the last game, but you really really are. He has 20+ years of coaching left in him.

I think it's hard to swallow after watching us get whacked around all season long. I, like many, bought into all the preseason hype.

He will make his way onto the bench of a P6 school as an assistant, but don't these elusive P6 schools take guys from non-P6 schools that have made a run or two into March? No one came calling for jimmy "one hit wonder" worthless at bu when he made a sweet 16 run and please, correct me if I'm wrong but was Porter's phone ringing off the hook after last year's Final Four run?

What makes anyone think that Muller will get the call when he has none of these accomplishments on his resume?

You are probably fooling yourself of you think some BIG schools weren't reaching out to Porter Moser in mid 2018. The fact is that Porter is in a little more unique of a situation than some other coaches.

1. He is a Chicago guy. He grew up in the high priced burbs and still makes his home in them.
2. He is and has been extremely well off financially. It would take a Gregg Marshall offer to get money to be a motivating factor here. He just does not seem to care about that.
3. He had a slew of returning players from a final 4 team including the Valley POY and arguably the best big in the Valley (sorry Phil).

I honestly think Porter really has no interest in leaving Loyola or the state of Illinois at the moment.

Do you really think a Pittsburgh, Wake Forest, Penn State, Nebraska, Rutgers, Cal, Washington St or... cough cough... a Vanderbilt aren't going to have Muller or Porter on a short list if they were unemployed right now?

I can see Muller going to be an assistant coach... at like a North Carolina or a Kansas or a Michigan. The guy has never has a losing record, likely will continue that trend this year. He is going to end this season probably about 142-95 with a conference COY under him while being one of the youngest head coaches in the country. For comparison sake, Porter Moser is 8 years older than Dan Muller and has a 236-217 record. He has exactly 1 NCAA appearance in 14 years of coaching.

I argue that, overall, Dan Muller is a better coach.

I'm not saying extend Muller for the rest of his life or that he does not need to do better than this down season, but I am saying that you guys shouldn't be aghast if ISU were to cut ties with him after another 19 win season and then have him in the Big 10 or SEC as a HC the week after.

 

[gobirds85]

Even with this down season, if for any reason Dan Muller becomes a free agent in the next 2 years, he is going to a major conference. Might not be a homerun program in a major conference, but a major conference nonetheless. We are getting a bargain on this coach right now. I know that is hard to swallow after watching the end of the last game, but you really really are. He has 20+ years of coaching left in him.

I think it's hard to swallow after watching us get whacked around all season long. I, like many, bought into all the preseason hype.

He will make his way onto the bench of a P6 school as an assistant, but don't these elusive P6 schools take guys from non-P6 schools that have made a run or two into March? No one came calling for jimmy "one hit wonder" worthless at bu when he made a sweet 16 run and please, correct me if I'm wrong but was Porter's phone ringing off the hook after last year's Final Four run?

What makes anyone think that Muller will get the call when he has none of these accomplishments on his resume?

You are probably fooling yourself of you think some BIG schools weren't reaching out to Porter Moser in mid 2018. The fact is that Porter is in a little more unique of a situation than some other coaches.

1. He is a Chicago guy. He grew up in the high priced burbs and still makes his home in them.
2. He is and has been extremely well off financially. It would take a Gregg Marshall offer to get money to be a motivating factor here. He just does not seem to care about that.
3. He had a slew of returning players from a final 4 team including the Valley POY and arguably the best big in the Valley (sorry Phil).

I honestly think Porter really has no interest in leaving Loyola or the state of Illinois at the moment.

Do you really think a Pittsburgh, Wake Forest, Penn State, Nebraska, Rutgers, Cal, Washington St or... cough cough... a Vanderbilt aren't going to have Muller or Porter on a short list if they were unemployed right now?

I can see Muller going to be an assistant coach... at like a North Carolina or a Kansas or a Michigan. The guy has never has a losing record, likely will continue that trend this year. He is going to end this season probably about 142-95 with a conference COY under him while being one of the youngest head coaches in the country. For comparison sake, Porter Moser is 8 years older than Dan Muller and has a 236-217 record. He has exactly 1 NCAA appearance in 14 years of coaching.

I argue that, overall, Dan Muller is a better coach.

I'm not saying extend Muller for the rest of his life or that he does not need to do better than this down season, but I am saying that you guys shouldn't be aghast if ISU were to cut ties with him after another 19 win season and then have him in the Big 10 or SEC as a HC the week after.

Seriously??!?!?? You believe that ISU could fire him and after being bounced out here, after losing and having nothing to show for it a big ten/14 or SEC would hire him to be their HC? C'mon man, we know you are just screwing with us now. Good joke. But on the outside chance you aren't, please, please, please whatever you are on or are drinking let me know so when our group of disgruntled Redbird fans make our yearly March trip to Vegas I can have some or at least get an idea of what it is.

 

[gobirds85]

Moser has a Final Four. Dan does not even have a tourney bid. Argue all you want. You would be wrong.

 

[ricohill]

I think it's hard to swallow after watching us get whacked around all season long. I, like many, bought into all the preseason hype.

He will make his way onto the bench of a P6 school as an assistant, but don't these elusive P6 schools take guys from non-P6 schools that have made a run or two into March? No one came calling for jimmy "one hit wonder" worthless at bu when he made a sweet 16 run and please, correct me if I'm wrong but was Porter's phone ringing off the hook after last year's Final Four run?

What makes anyone think that Muller will get the call when he has none of these accomplishments on his resume?

You are probably fooling yourself of you think some BIG schools weren't reaching out to Porter Moser in mid 2018. The fact is that Porter is in a little more unique of a situation than some other coaches.

1. He is a Chicago guy. He grew up in the high priced burbs and still makes his home in them.
2. He is and has been extremely well off financially. It would take a Gregg Marshall offer to get money to be a motivating factor here. He just does not seem to care about that.
3. He had a slew of returning players from a final 4 team including the Valley POY and arguably the best big in the Valley (sorry Phil).

I honestly think Porter really has no interest in leaving Loyola or the state of Illinois at the moment.

Do you really think a Pittsburgh, Wake Forest, Penn State, Nebraska, Rutgers, Cal, Washington St or... cough cough... a Vanderbilt aren't going to have Muller or Porter on a short list if they were unemployed right now?

I can see Muller going to be an assistant coach... at like a North Carolina or a Kansas or a Michigan. The guy has never has a losing record, likely will continue that trend this year. He is going to end this season probably about 142-95 with a conference COY under him while being one of the youngest head coaches in the country. For comparison sake, Porter Moser is 8 years older than Dan Muller and has a 236-217 record. He has exactly 1 NCAA appearance in 14 years of coaching.

I argue that, overall, Dan Muller is a better coach.

I'm not saying extend Muller for the rest of his life or that he does not need to do better than this down season, but I am saying that you guys shouldn't be aghast if ISU were to cut ties with him after another 19 win season and then have him in the Big 10 or SEC as a HC the week after.

Seriously??!?!?? You believe that ISU could fire him and after being bounced out here, after losing and having nothing to show for it a big ten/14 or SEC would hire him to be their HC? C'mon man, we know you are just screwing with us now. Good joke. But on the outside chance you aren't, please, please, please whatever you are on or are drinking let me know so when our group of disgruntled Redbird fans make our yearly March trip to Vegas I can have some or at least get an idea of what it is.

He won the league and was a fringe candidate at Dayton.

I will say this, if Muller went to the NCAA Tournament he would be a bigger candidate than Porter. Porter has coached for 14 years (not counting this year) and last year was the first time he finished better than 5th.

Also, if you want to compare programs/Porter and Muller. Porter went to the final 4 in his 7th season at Loyola. Not looking like Dan will be there in year 7.

 

[ChiRedbirdfan]

Even with this down season, if for any reason Dan Muller becomes a free agent in the next 2 years, he is going to a major conference. Might not be a homerun program in a major conference, but a major conference nonetheless. We are getting a bargain on this coach right now. I know that is hard to swallow after watching the end of the last game, but you really really are. He has 20+ years of coaching left in him.

I think it's hard to swallow after watching us get whacked around all season long. I, like many, bought into all the preseason hype.

He will make his way onto the bench of a P6 school as an assistant, but don't these elusive P6 schools take guys from non-P6 schools that have made a run or two into March? No one came calling for jimmy "one hit wonder" worthless at bu when he made a sweet 16 run and please, correct me if I'm wrong but was Porter's phone ringing off the hook after last year's Final Four run?

What makes anyone think that Muller will get the call when he has none of these accomplishments on his resume?

You are probably fooling yourself of you think some BIG schools weren't reaching out to Porter Moser in mid 2018. The fact is that Porter is in a little more unique of a situation than some other coaches.

1. He is a Chicago guy. He grew up in the high priced burbs and still makes his home in them.
2. He is and has been extremely well off financially. It would take a Gregg Marshall offer to get money to be a motivating factor here. He just does not seem to care about that.
3. He had a slew of returning players from a final 4 team including the Valley POY and arguably the best big in the Valley (sorry Phil).

I honestly think Porter really has no interest in leaving Loyola or the state of Illinois at the moment.

Do you really think a Pittsburgh, Wake Forest, Penn State, Nebraska, Rutgers, Cal, Washington St or... cough cough... a Vanderbilt aren't going to have Muller or Porter on a short list if they were unemployed right now?

I can see Muller going to be an assistant coach... at like a North Carolina or a Kansas or a Michigan. The guy has never has a losing record, likely will continue that trend this year. He is going to end this season probably about 142-95 with a conference COY under him while being one of the youngest head coaches in the country. For comparison sake, Porter Moser is 8 years older than Dan Muller and has a 236-217 record. He has exactly 1 NCAA appearance in 14 years of coaching.

I argue that, overall, Dan Muller is a better coach.

I'm not saying extend Muller for the rest of his life or that he does not need to do better than this down season, but I am saying that you guys shouldn't be aghast if ISU were to cut ties with him after another 19 win season and then have him in the Big 10 or SEC as a HC the week after.

I don't know what your sources are telling you about Porter but that info is a lot different then what I hear. I hear Porter likes Loyola as it is the best coaching position available in the MVC for success but he will be interested to move on if he continues to have success and an enticing opportunity arises. These coaches are competitors so why would he not move up and compete at a higher level?... and, by the way, make a lot more money doing it Also the prestige and fame of being a coach at a higher level is so different than a mid-major. These coaches tend to have egos too. I'd bet, though I have no knowledge, the same applies to Muller too..meaning he wants to move up.

 

[Redbirdwarrior]

So, once again, all of you are pegging all success as only being NCAA bids. So a coach that goes 1-26 during the season but team gets hot for 3 games and wobbles into the tournament is a better coach than one that wins at a 61% clip. That is 100% what you all seem to be saying.

As long as you are all honest about that, that is fine. But then you lose all right to complain about any team ever being "snubbed" because per your own beliefs on the topic, whomever the committee picks are the best 68 teams in the country every time. Further, you give up the right to complain about any sub 10 win season that comes from the next coach because, ya know, that grass is always greener. I personally give HCDM credit for making the show 2 years ago as it was nothing but money and politics that kept THE BEST TEAM IN SCHOOL HISTORY out.

So please, pick you side:

A) Dan Muller is a bad coach, but the NCAA is always 100% correct on selection Sunday and is in no way corrupt, influenced or flawed. Without a win in Stl, Dan Muller should be let go.

B) Dan Muller is a good coach and a proven consistent winner who was snubbed out of an NCAA bid because of money and politcs. Regardless of showing in Stl, he should stay.

There are no other options.

 

[gobirds85]

So, once again, all of you are pegging all success as only being NCAA bids. So a coach that goes 1-26 during the season but team gets hot for 3 games and wobbles into the tournament is a better coach than one that wins at a 61% clip. That is 100% what you all seem to be saying.

As long as you are all honest about that, that is fine. But then you lose all right to complain about any team ever being "snubbed" because per your own beliefs on the topic, whomever the committee picks are the best 68 teams in the country every time. Further, you give up the right to complain about any sub 10 win season that comes from the next coach because, ya know, that grass is always greener. I personally give HCDM credit for making the show 2 years ago as it was nothing but money and politics that kept THE BEST TEAM IN SCHOOL HISTORY out.

So please, pick you side:

A) Dan Muller is a bad coach, but the NCAA is always 100% correct on selection Sunday and is in no way corrupt, influenced or flawed. Without a win in Stl, Dan Muller should be let go.

B) Dan Muller is a good coach and a proven consistent winner who was snubbed out of an NCAA bid because of money and politcs. Regardless of showing in Stl, he should stay.

There are no other options.

61% is a very low D. No tournament bids would be an F. Two short NIT runs C-.

We got screwed once, maybe getting the kicked out of us in the valley championship game wasn’t such a good idea. That made it very easy for the committee to leave us out. They always look for ways to leave the non power 6 schools out. And we obliged.

You really don’t think Dan would be hired by a big ten/14 or SEC school if he got fired here, do you?

 

[Redbird28]

B is the lane that I reside in of the choices above.

I disagreed with a couple of timeouts he called yesterday simply because MSU was out of them and it allowed them to set things up, and as has been beat to death here it put us in a bad position on that final inbounds play. I wish we had it to call rather than Chas tossing a prayer up just to avoid the 5 second call, but it is what it is.

The other chief issue I have are the times when we have taken the air out of the ball a little too early rather than just continuing to pound a team we already have down.

All of that said, a few of our guys take some poor shots outside of the flow of the offense from time to time just to give themselves a heat check, but that's a separate non-coaching related issue. I don't think the coaches are coaching them to hoist random shots early in the shot clock to see how hot they are. Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it.