Illinois State to the MAC?

[Redbird222]

The only way to get to the Big 12 is to take steps like joining the MAC or Conference USA. They don't have to be the destination but a stop on the journey if your ultimate goal is the Big 12.

That being said, we may be too late to the party. The landscape is dynamic and changing faster than anyone anticipated.

BTW, we can recognize the many historical achievements of Redbird athletics and academics while still acknowledging that the collegiate experience is changing and therefore we need to continue to evolve to position ourselves competitively both academically and athletically in the future.

 

[Birddog]

I apologize to the board for continuing what is most likely a dead end thread, but this is the kind of topic that engages me for some odd reason. Pass by if you want no matter of this nonsense. But here you go anyway.

The MAC touts itself as the model of consistency and from a membership’s perspective it is, but there is a serious problem boiling underneath many of the institutions. Enrollment.

We know about the enrollment issues in Illinois - the enrollment cliff - which has impacted our directional sisters. But because I can’t help myself, I looked at MAC enrollment and because I keep reading about the problem at Akron. About half of the schools have seen significant drops in enrollment over the past 20 years.

School/2003/2022or2023 in rough numbers

WMU 29,000 to 17,000
EMU 24,000 to 13,000
CMU 24,000 to 14,000
NIU 25,000 to 15,000
TOL 21,000 to 15,000
AKR 22,000 to 13,000

These are best I could find and may be inaccurate. Many of these schools report satellite campuses and online. I tried to parse as much as possible.

Imagine if their athletic budgets are like ISU’s and heavily dependent on student fees. I know NIU’s is. How have they maintained FBS football? It’s why there has been talk of some schools dropping down.

Now look at ISU 20,000 to nearly 21,000. This without FBS football while NIU has really struggled. So the questions is what is the ultimate goal of moving up if FCS really isn’t a drag on the university?

But also, ISU looks pretty darn good if you are the MAC presidents and commissioner. Is Akron or EMU the stable future?

 

[TBS_20]

I apologize to the board for continuing what is most likely a dead end thread, but this is the kind of topic that engages me for some odd reason. Pass by if you want no matter of this nonsense. But here you go anyway.

The MAC touts itself as the model of consistency and from a membership’s perspective it is, but there is a serious problem boiling underneath many of the institutions. Enrollment.

We know about the enrollment issues in Illinois - the enrollment cliff - which has impacted our directional sisters. But because I can’t help myself, I looked at MAC enrollment and because I keep reading about the problem at Akron. About half of the schools have seen significant drops in enrollment over the past 20 years.

School/2003/2022or2023 in rough numbers

WMU 29,000 to 17,000
EMU 24,000 to 13,000
CMU 24,000 to 14,000
NIU 25,000 to 15,000
TOL 21,000 to 15,000
AKR 22,000 to 13,000

These are best I could find and may be inaccurate. Many of these schools report satellite campuses and online. I tried to parse as much as possible.

Imagine if their athletic budgets are like ISU’s and heavily dependent on student fees. I know NIU’s is. How have they maintained FBS football? It’s why there has been talk of some schools dropping down.

Now look at ISU 20,000 to nearly 21,000. This without FBS football while NIU has really struggled. So the questions is what is the ultimate goal of moving up if FCS really isn’t a drag on the university?

But also, ISU looks pretty darn good if you are the MAC presidents and commissioner. Is Akron or EMU the stable future?

The goal is to not stay in the MAC.

 

[Birddog]

The goal is to not stay in the MAC.

But if you want to move up, there realistically isn’t another choice.

 

[Birddog]

US News rankings for MAC schools (National Universities) for what it’s worth, what ain’t much:

Buffalo 76
Miami 133
Ohio 178
Ball 216
Kent 227
CMU 260
NIU 269
BGSU 280
Toledo
WMU 304
Akron 361
EMU 376

ISU 209

Someone come over here and stop me now!

 

[TBS_20]

But if you want to move up, there realistically isn’t another choice.

I agree it's the first stepping stone

 

[Redbird222]

I apologize to the board for continuing what is most likely a dead end thread, but this is the kind of topic that engages me for some odd reason. Pass by if you want no matter of this nonsense. But here you go anyway.

The MAC touts itself as the model of consistency and from a membership’s perspective it is, but there is a serious problem boiling underneath many of the institutions. Enrollment.

We know about the enrollment issues in Illinois - the enrollment cliff - which has impacted our directional sisters. But because I can’t help myself, I looked at MAC enrollment and because I keep reading about the problem at Akron. About half of the schools have seen significant drops in enrollment over the past 20 years.

School/2003/2022or2023 in rough numbers

WMU 29,000 to 17,000
EMU 24,000 to 13,000
CMU 24,000 to 14,000
NIU 25,000 to 15,000
TOL 21,000 to 15,000
AKR 22,000 to 13,000

These are best I could find and may be inaccurate. Many of these schools report satellite campuses and online. I tried to parse as much as possible.

Imagine if their athletic budgets are like ISU’s and heavily dependent on student fees. I know NIU’s is. How have they maintained FBS football? It’s why there has been talk of some schools dropping down.

Now look at ISU 20,000 to nearly 21,000. This without FBS football while NIU has really struggled. So the questions is what is the ultimate goal of moving up if FCS really isn’t a drag on the university?

But also, ISU looks pretty darn good if you are the MAC presidents and commissioner. Is Akron or EMU the stable future?

Look at the MVC schools and there are similar concerns with some schools. Look at the trends of Southern Illinois, Indiana St, and Murray St. Bradley has reported financials trouble as well. Declining enrollment is a trend but is it hitting certain schools harder than others.

 

[Birddog]

Look at the MVC schools and there are similar concerns with some schools. Look at the trends of Southern Illinois, Indiana St, and Murray St. Bradley has reported financials trouble as well. Declining enrollment is a trend but is it hitting certain schools harder than others.

Location. Location. Location.

Haven’t look into Murray and Indy State. No idea they’re having trouble.

If you want to look at a school going in the other direction, look at Tarelton State in Texas. It is seriously being considered for CUSA along or Missouri State. The question is does MSU want to move up?

 

[ChiRedbirdfan]

In the last 40 years Illinois State University has built CEFCU Arena, Hancock 2.0, the Indoor Practice Facility, the Owen Strength and Conditioning Center, the Mounier Golf Training Center, the Gregory St. Tennis courts, Duffy Bass Field & The Paul Dejong Baseball Training facility, the Redbird Track & Field Complex, the Kneer Softball Complex, as well as upgrading the Men's Basketball locker room, meeting room and player lounge. I may have missed some things.

On the academic side Illinois State has added majors in Cybersecurity, Nursing and Engineering. If you go back a full 40-50 years, I am sure that I am missing many others.

The academic performance of Illinois State student-athletes has been exemplary as they flood the Honor Roll.

Illinois State University has positioned itself well above many other Illinois public universities that are battling declining enrollment. If you're looking for an affordable/quality public university education in the state of Illinois, your choices are basically the University of Illinois and Illinois State University.

The prudent use of resources along with plans for sound and steady growth has placed Illinois State University in an enviable position with excellent prospects for continued long-term success.

i am speaking of enrollment growth which provides diversification of risk and lowering of costs over time. Throwing out some comments from my perspective.

You are painting a picture of ISU that is all rainbows and cupcakes and agree there is a good foundation. Not so certain comparing isu to eastern and western does any good as I view ISU as a national university vs a regional university. Further I would like ISU’s academic ranking to be higher and think there were missed opportunities there and that short changes all alums and students. I am thrilled with the engineering enhancement but wish that was done 30 years ago. Hats of to Dietz for getting that done.

I would put UIC ahead of Isu for in state public university academic standing. Isu ‘s debt rating was not all that strong last l looked and endowment small for size and profile of university. Bifurcated conference for main sports not ideal and difficult to find a university of ISU’s size and standing playing second tier d1 football … which limits a significant opportunity to market the university. With that it is questionable to me why play fcs football?…which makes sense why so many programs have left fcs. Nearly all the expenses of several fbs football programs without the revenue opportunity and more importantly marketing of the university. There was a day and age when fcs made sense (economic sense esp) but does not in today’s environment. ISU would be equally as strong without fcs football, imo, and quite frankly could use all of the student/university subsidies spent on football better elsewhere. Seriously what is the benefit of fcs?

Lastly do a comparison of Isu athletic expenses vs public conf peers or even Mac universities and give me your perspective of how prudent Isu is from a fiscal perspective. Example uni pays their football and men’s basketball coaches more in annual salary than Isu however our athletic department coach’s and staff expenses have been $52.6 mil for 2018 thru 2022 and uni only spent $36.2 mil. In 2022 Isu athletics spent $10.8 mil and uni spent 7.5mil yet again they pay there 2 main revenue sport coaches more . This is not an anomaly as we are consistently much higher in this category than our conference peers. I have brought this up before yet the response is crickets. I am guessing the discrepancy is due to a bloated and inefficient athletic department esp as respects to staffing and salary management? What else could it be?

Lots of positives at ISU as well as tremendous opportunities to advance/improve.

 

[Total Red]

i am speaking of enrollment growth which provides diversification of risk and lowering of costs over time.

Enrollment jumped 40-50 years ago because the bulky Baby Boomer generation was headed off to college. Illinois State grew to accommodate them and then began to level off. Leveling off is good when you consider that many other state universities are struggling with enrollment. Illinois State has reached a comfortable size, right-sizing I think they call it.
The population of the state of Illinois has been in decline. If you increase the enrollment, then you have to increase the infrastructure and add faculty and staff. What if the population of the state continues to decline? Then you have excess infrastructure expenses and you have to cut staff. Risky/Not prudent. Also, what would it do to other state universities? You may not care about that but there are politicians in Springfield that do care. If we accept more applicants, then schools like EIU and WIU may not survive. Every school has a small number of commuter students that depend on the university being close by. If we lose regional coverage the state of Illinois ceases to serve those students and those areas. Beware of unintended consequences.

I would put UIC ahead of Isu for in state public university academic standing. Isu ‘s debt rating was not all that strong last l looked and endowment small for size and profile of university.

I would not put UIC ahead of Illinois State in academic standing.

Don't forget that Illinois State became a full-fledged university about 6 decades ago. Before that it was ISNU, and not much more than a teacher's college. In the 1960's schools like the University of Illinois had a huge head start. Illinois State has grown and gotten in the game, but endowments are often made by older graduates. We are now benefitting from large graduating classes from decades ago but that wasn't always the case.

limits a significant opportunity to market the university. With that it is questionable to me why play fcs football?

Because the support we get from the fanbase is sufficient to field winning teams at the FCS level. The level of support would need to increase significantly to be competitive at the FBS level and there have not been indicators that that would happen. I've asked people to post the signs they see that Illinois State is interested in taking football to the next level. I got one unconvincing response. Otherwise crickets.

Seriously what is the benefit of fcs?

I enjoy the exciting play on the field but for most people it is more than that. At Illinois State FCS football is a social event with a football game attached. Family Day and Homecoming draw well. When the weather cooperates, we have a quality Game Day atmosphere. Thousands of fans tailgate while some wait by the underpass for BRMM to pass through. Family Day drew a full house of 13,391 last year with more still tailgating outside. What other event in Normal-Bloomington draws 13,391 people?? Those 13,391 fans have a good time and they get it. I'm sorry that you don't.

Lastly do a comparison of Isu athletic expenses vs public conf peers - Example uni pays their football and men’s basketball coaches more in annual salary than Isu however our athletic department coach’s and staff expenses have been $52.6 mil for 2018 thru 2022 and uni only spent $36.2 mil. In 2022 Isu athletics spent $10.8 mil and uni spent 7.5mil yet again they pay there 2 main revenue sport coaches more . This is not an anomaly as we are consistently much higher in this category than our conference peers. I have brought this up before yet the response is crickets. I am guessing the discrepancy is due to a bloated and inefficient athletic department esp as respects to staffing and salary management? What else could it be?

At first glance I see that we offer 17 varsity sports while UNI only offers 15 so we should be higher. I agree that still doesn't account for the difference. Beyond that I don't know but I don't think you know either. I do know that IF you have a fiscal spending problem then you better get it fixed before considering the FBS because the FBS is a monster-sized arms race.

 

[ISUBird]

The NIT field was just announced. Plenty of regular season winning schools did not get an invite like 20-12 Toledo from the MAC.

 

[redbirds2000]

Enrollment jumped 40-50 years ago because the bulky Baby Boomer generation was headed off to college. Illinois State grew to accommodate them and then began to level off. Leveling off is good when you consider that many other state universities are struggling with enrollment. Illinois State has reached a comfortable size, right-sizing I think they call it.
The population of the state of Illinois has been in decline. If you increase the enrollment, then you have to increase the infrastructure and add faculty and staff. What if the population of the state continues to decline? Then you have excess infrastructure expenses and you have to cut staff. Risky/Not prudent. Also, what would it do to other state universities? You may not care about that but there are politicians in Springfield that do care. If we accept more applicants, then schools like EIU and WIU may not survive. Every school has a small number of commuter students that depend on the university being close by. If we lose regional coverage the state of Illinois ceases to serve those students and those areas. You sound like a marketing major but consider all angles and beware of unintended consequences.

I would not put UIC ahead of Illinois State in academic standing.

Don't forget that Illinois State became a full-fledged university about 6 decades ago. Before that it was ISNU, and not much more than a teacher's college. In the 1960's schools like the University of Illinois had a huge head start. Illinois State has grown and gotten in the game, but endowments are often made by older graduates. We are now benefitting from large graduating classes from decades ago but that wasn't always the case.

Because the support we get from the fanbase is sufficient to field winning teams at the FCS level. The level of support would need to increase significantly to be competitive at the FBS level and there have not been indicators that that would happen. I've asked people to post the signs they see that Illinois State is interested in taking football to the next level. I got one unconvincing response. Otherwise crickets.

I enjoy the exciting play on the field but for most people it is more than that. At Illinois State FCS football is a social event with a football game attached. Family Day and Homecoming draw well. When the weather cooperates, we have a quality Game Day atmosphere. Thousands of fans tailgate while some wait by the underpass for BRMM to pass through. Family Day drew a full house of 13,391 last year with more still tailgating outside. What other event in Normal-Bloomington draws 13,391 people?? Those 13,391 fans have a good time and they get it. I'm sorry you don't.

At first glance I see that we offer 17 varsity sports while UNI only offers 15 so we should be higher. I agree that still doesn't account for the difference. Beyond that I don't know but I don't think you know either. I do know that IF you have a fiscal spending problem then you better get it fixed before considering the FBS because the FBS is a monster-sized arms race.

10,000 of those fans couldn't name all the members of the MVFC and 5 players on ISU's team if asked to do so at the gate. They arent there for the football that's for sure.

 

[StLRedbird]

i am speaking of enrollment growth which provides diversification of risk and lowering of costs over time. Throwing out some comments from my perspective.

You are painting a picture of ISU that is all rainbows and cupcakes and agree there is a good foundation. Not so certain comparing isu to eastern and western does any good as I view ISU as a national university vs a regional university. Further I would like ISU’s academic ranking to be higher and think there were missed opportunities there and that short changes all alums and students. I am thrilled with the engineering enhancement but wish that was done 30 years ago. Hats of to Dietz for getting that done.

I would put UIC ahead of Isu for in state public university academic standing. Isu ‘s debt rating was not all that strong last l looked and endowment small for size and profile of university. Bifurcated conference for main sports not ideal and difficult to find a university of ISU’s size and standing playing second tier d1 football … which limits a significant opportunity to market the university. With that it is questionable to me why play fcs football?…which makes sense why so many programs have left fcs. Nearly all the expenses of several fbs football programs without the revenue opportunity and more importantly marketing of the university. There was a day and age when fcs made sense (economic sense esp) but does not in today’s environment. ISU would be equally as strong without fcs football, imo, and quite frankly could use all of the student/university subsidies spent on football better elsewhere. Seriously what is the benefit of fcs?

Lastly do a comparison of Isu athletic expenses vs public conf peers or even Mac universities and give me your perspective of how prudent Isu is from a fiscal perspective. Example uni pays their football and men’s basketball coaches more in annual salary than Isu however our athletic department coach’s and staff expenses have been $52.6 mil for 2018 thru 2022 and uni only spent $36.2 mil. In 2022 Isu athletics spent $10.8 mil and uni spent 7.5mil yet again they pay there 2 main revenue sport coaches more . This is not an anomaly as we are consistently much higher in this category than our conference peers. I have brought this up before yet the response is crickets. I am guessing the discrepancy is due to a bloated and inefficient athletic department esp as respects to staffing and salary management? What else could it be?

Lots of positives at ISU as well as tremendous opportunities to advance/improve.

This is playing out how it must play out here. Men's basketball launched ISU into D1. It created fans willing to donate and buy season tickets at a rate that was an order of magnitude greater than all other sports combined. But that is changing. The level of dismay at the performance of that program is palpable. Our investments the past couple decades have heavily skewed toward football, so the admins understand it's growing importance. But they won't lead us. We must demand it.

 

[Total Red]

But they won't lead us. We must demand it.

It takes both leadership and followership, or as you put it, demand. As I pointed out earlier, we've had leaders in the past that tried to lead a rally towards FBS football but it barely moved the needle. Yes, there needs to be demand and real demand equals donations/attendance. That's the type of demand that can bring about change. Not messages on a message board.

 

[Reggie1857]

But they won't lead us.

They never have.... therein lies the problem

 

[Birgs]

10,000 of those fans couldn't name all the members of the MVFC and 5 players on ISU's team if asked to do so at the gate. They arent there for the football that's for sure.

Who cares the motivation? Isn't the largest cog in this beyond the games and such (the real appetizer for us legit fans), and more what greases the mechanism most in terms of exposure and donor $$$. Anything that brings more people out = a marketing +

...or maybe I'm over-simplifying here.

 

[ChiRedbirdfan]

They never have.... therein lies the problem

It felt like Bowman was leading ISU towards the watering hole. The benefit to the university side as respects exposure is too much ignore. Too bad he was not the President for another decade. The tragic plane crash seemed to take help take the wind out of the sails too.

The AD after Bowman and the President were not positively engaged in ISU athletics. Although the AD did do a good job of making certain his family found employment.

 

[fourthandshort]

US News rankings for MAC schools (National Universities) for what it’s worth, what ain’t much:

Buffalo 76
Miami 133
Ohio 178
Ball 216
Kent 227
CMU 260
NIU 269
BGSU 280
Toledo
WMU 304
Akron 361
EMU 376

ISU 209

Someone come over here and stop me now!

Curious what all they base these rankings on. I would need to read up on this site: https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/rankings-methodologies

But for more perspective on these US news rankings,this 209 ranking is of 1,692 schools, which is just outside the top 10%-ile at 12.35% ... this isn't bad at all. U of I is ranked #80 ... which is just inside the top 5%.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

 

[Reggie1857]

It felt like Bowman was leading ISU towards the watering hole. The benefit to the university side as respects exposure is too much ignore. Too bad he was not the President for another decade. The tragic plane crash seemed to take help take the wind out of the sails too.

The AD after Bowman and the President were not positively engaged in ISU athletics. Although the AD did do a good job of making certain his family found employment.

While it would have been nice to see Bowman finish what he was at least giving lip service to, it's important to realize that Illinois State's history of administrative failure with regards to athletics, goes back many decades before
him.

 

[StLRedbird]

It takes both leadership and followership, or as you put it, demand. As I pointed out earlier, we've had leaders in the past that tried to lead a rally towards FBS football but it barely moved the needle. Yes, there needs to be demand and real demand equals donations/attendance. That's the type of demand that can bring about change. Not messages on a message board.

Gosh, TR. Anyone that thinks messages on a fan forum can matter in something like this is deluding themselves. But I also think this fine forum is something of a chronicle of record for things that matter to Redbird fans. And it's important to note that in the fall of '23 an opportunity to pursue membership in the MAC appears to have opened. In the events after UMass successfully pursued membership, they contacted schools that they thought were "likely interested" in membership. This has included ISU in the past. People talk about this as something we just need to decide to do, but you need a dance partner, and the MAC is scanning the dance floor.