Illinois State to the MAC?

[Total Red]

Agreed.... historically, Illinois State leadership has continuously chosen the path of least resistance when it comes to athletics. Like you, I've seen nothing demonstrated to make me think that mindset has changed.

We've agreed on what is happening, but we don't agree on why it is happening. Or to put it another way we disagree on where the mindset originates.

Anyone taking an honest look at the situation can see that the athletic dept has historically responded to the interests and actions, as well as the disinterests and lack of action, of the Redbird Fanbase. Data points demonstrating that this is the case are all around us if we choose to look at them. I've posted hundreds over the years. You need more?

Look at the 2024 Basketball recruiting board. There is a thread about Jaheem Webber. He isn't coming to Illinois State now and he will likely never play 1 minute here. Doesn't matter, fans are INTERESTED. That thread has been viewed 19 THOUSAND TIMES! Ok, he's local so we'll throw that one out. How about the player below him. Jaden Smith Chicago Kenwood. He's not coming here. The thread has been viewed 7 THOUSAND TIMES. Now contrast that with the Football Board. The 2024 List so Far thread contains discussion and listing of over 30 names of players actually coming to Illinois State to perform. Over 30 real Redbird athletes and the entire thread has been viewed 7 thousand times. That makes it equal to 1 basketball player that will likely never play here.

Do you think the athletic dept. decides that? Do you think they manufacture those disparate levels of interest? No! It happened naturally. I blame Doug Collins but maybe it goes back even further than that and I don't expect it will change.

At that point you have two options. Recognize what your fanbase is telling you and focus on what they want or ignore the evidence and plow ahead. We have a thread on the Football Board discussing a move to the MAC and we have posts responding from a purely basketball perspective saying that the MVC is better than the MAC in basketball. Again, this is on the FOOTBALL BOARD! I think we know what they want.

There are lot of people in the athletic dept that would love for you to be right about FBS football requiring nothing more that good-sized push from the top. Kenny Mossman told you that many years ago. But they haven't lost their senses and they have seen the response or lack thereof to private fundraising efforts. They aren't blind to the interest levels of the fanbase.

We had a poll about joining the MAC. It's 3 1/2 days old and 24 people bothered to respond. 24. 14 want to move up. What's that telling you? Are we going to join the MAC to keep those 14 fans in the fold knowing we might lose some of the basketball fans we have left?
Hey, I know that this board doesn't have the traffic it once did as everyone flocks to newer technology. Message boards are for old people now but guess what? The Boomers are the ones with the money so again if you get a grand total of 24 responses it's trying to tell you something. You ain't got the juice.

But you've been telling me something too and I haven't been listening. You're not interested data points, facts or evidence. The athletic admin is just lazy and stupid. It's a good soundbite that resonates with the uninformed. You should go into politics.

 

[Sanantoniobird]

We've agreed on what is happening, but we don't agree on why it is happening. Or to put it another way we disagree on where the mindset originates.

Anyone taking an honest look at the situation can see that the athletic dept has historically responded to the interests and actions, as well as the disinterests and lack of action, of the Redbird Fanbase. Data points demonstrating that this is the case are all around us if we choose to look at them. I've posted hundreds over the years. You need more?

Look at the 2024 Basketball recruiting board. There is a thread about Jaheem Webber. He isn't coming to Illinois State now and he will likely never play 1 minute here. Doesn't matter, fans are INTERESTED. That thread has been viewed 19 THOUSAND TIMES! Ok, he's local so we'll throw that one out. How about the player below him. Jaden Smith Chicago Kenwood. He's not coming here. The thread has been viewed 7 THOUSAND TIMES. Now contrast that with the Football Board. The 2024 List so Far thread contains discussion and listing of over 30 names of players actually coming to Illinois State to perform. Over 30 real Redbird athletes and the entire thread has been viewed 7 thousand times. That makes it equal to 1 basketball player that will likely never play here.

Do you think the athletic dept. decides that? Do you think they manufacture those disparate levels of interest? No! It happened naturally. I blame Doug Collins but maybe it goes back even further than that and I don't expect it will change.

At that point you have two options. Recognize what your fanbase is telling you and focus on what they want or ignore the evidence and plow ahead. We have a thread on the Football Board discussing a move to the MAC and we have posts responding from a purely basketball perspective saying that the MVC is better than the MAC in basketball. Again, this is on the FOOTBALL BOARD! I think we know what they want.

There are lot of people in the athletic dept that would love for you to be right about FBS football requiring nothing more that good-sized push from the top. Kenny Mossman told you that many years ago. But they haven't lost their senses and they have seen the response or lack thereof to private fundraising efforts. They aren't blind to the interest levels of the fanbase.

We had a poll about joining the MAC. It's 3 1/2 days old and 24 people bothered to respond. 24. 14 want to move up. What's that telling you? Are we going to join the MAC to keep those 14 fans in the fold knowing we might lose some of the basketball fans we have left?
Hey, I know that this board doesn't have the traffic it once did as everyone flocks to newer technology. Message boards are for old people now but guess what? The Boomers are the ones with the money so again if you get a grand total of 24 responses it's trying to tell you something. You ain't got the juice.

But you've been telling me something too and I haven't been listening. You're not interested data points, facts or evidence. The athletic admin is just lazy and stupid. It's a good soundbite that resonates with the uninformed. You should go into politics.

Dayum! Facts.

 

[Birddog]

We've agreed on what is happening, but we don't agree on why it is happening. Or to put it another way we disagree on where the mindset originates.

Anyone taking an honest look at the situation can see that the athletic dept has historically responded to the interests and actions, as well as the disinterests and lack of action, of the Redbird Fanbase. Data points demonstrating that this is the case are all around us if we choose to look at them. I've posted hundreds over the years. You need more?

Look at the 2024 Basketball recruiting board. There is a thread about Jaheem Webber. He isn't coming to Illinois State now and he will likely never play 1 minute here. Doesn't matter, fans are INTERESTED. That thread has been viewed 19 THOUSAND TIMES! Ok, he's local so we'll throw that one out. How about the player below him. Jaden Smith Chicago Kenwood. He's not coming here. The thread has been viewed 7 THOUSAND TIMES. Now contrast that with the Football Board. The 2024 List so Far thread contains discussion and listing of over 30 names of players actually coming to Illinois State to perform. Over 30 real Redbird athletes and the entire thread has been viewed 7 thousand times. That makes it equal to 1 basketball player that will likely never play here.

Do you think the athletic dept. decides that? Do you think they manufacture those disparate levels of interest? No! It happened naturally. I blame Doug Collins but maybe it goes back even further than that and I don't expect it will change.

At that point you have two options. Recognize what your fanbase is telling you and focus on what they want or ignore the evidence and plow ahead. We have a thread on the Football Board discussing a move to the MAC and we have posts responding from a purely basketball perspective saying that the MVC is better than the MAC in basketball. Again, this is on the FOOTBALL BOARD! I think we know what they want.

There are lot of people in the athletic dept that would love for you to be right about FBS football requiring nothing more that good-sized push from the top. Kenny Mossman told you that many years ago. But they haven't lost their senses and they have seen the response or lack thereof to private fundraising efforts. They aren't blind to the interest levels of the fanbase.

We had a poll about joining the MAC. It's 3 1/2 days old and 24 people bothered to respond. 24. 14 want to move up. What's that telling you? Are we going to join the MAC to keep those 14 fans in the fold knowing we might lose some of the basketball fans we have left?
Hey, I know that this board doesn't have the traffic it once did as everyone flocks to newer technology. Message boards are for old people now but guess what? The Boomers are the ones with the money so again if you get a grand total of 24 responses it's trying to tell you something. You ain't got the juice.

But you've been telling me something too and I haven't been listening. You're not interested data points, facts or evidence. The athletic admin is just lazy and stupid. It's a good soundbite that resonates with the uninformed. You should go into politics.

Great comment with a lot of truth.

I will also add that, when I worked as faculty member and mid-level administrator at ISU, I and others understood that the university has a very conservative, risk-averse mindset and looks at big picture things that effect the over all health of the institution. This has served the university well. Its enrollment numbers and financial health have been remarkably stable during a time of declining enrollment at our directional peers, including NIU and many MAC schools.

So what does this mean for this discussion? ISU will not jump to something unless there is a strategic benefit. Meaning enrollment and finances. It will not take financial risk that could end up tarnishing its reputation in Springfield and with potential students. Which makes the financial investment in the COE that much more encouraging.

Perhaps there is a changing mindset about growth, reach, perception, and affiliation that could change how the university sees athletics.

But your bigger point about football engagement is probably more relevant.

 

[StLRedbird]

We've agreed on what is happening, but we don't agree on why it is happening. Or to put it another way we disagree on where the mindset originates.

Anyone taking an honest look at the situation can see that the athletic dept has historically responded to the interests and actions, as well as the disinterests and lack of action, of the Redbird Fanbase. Data points demonstrating that this is the case are all around us if we choose to look at them. I've posted hundreds over the years. You need more?

Look at the 2024 Basketball recruiting board. There is a thread about Jaheem Webber. He isn't coming to Illinois State now and he will likely never play 1 minute here. Doesn't matter, fans are INTERESTED. That thread has been viewed 19 THOUSAND TIMES! Ok, he's local so we'll throw that one out. How about the player below him. Jaden Smith Chicago Kenwood. He's not coming here. The thread has been viewed 7 THOUSAND TIMES. Now contrast that with the Football Board. The 2024 List so Far thread contains discussion and listing of over 30 names of players actually coming to Illinois State to perform. Over 30 real Redbird athletes and the entire thread has been viewed 7 thousand times. That makes it equal to 1 basketball player that will likely never play here.

Do you think the athletic dept. decides that? Do you think they manufacture those disparate levels of interest? No! It happened naturally. I blame Doug Collins but maybe it goes back even further than that and I don't expect it will change.

At that point you have two options. Recognize what your fanbase is telling you and focus on what they want or ignore the evidence and plow ahead. We have a thread on the Football Board discussing a move to the MAC and we have posts responding from a purely basketball perspective saying that the MVC is better than the MAC in basketball. Again, this is on the FOOTBALL BOARD! I think we know what they want.

There are lot of people in the athletic dept that would love for you to be right about FBS football requiring nothing more that good-sized push from the top. Kenny Mossman told you that many years ago. But they haven't lost their senses and they have seen the response or lack thereof to private fundraising efforts. They aren't blind to the interest levels of the fanbase.

We had a poll about joining the MAC. It's 3 1/2 days old and 24 people bothered to respond. 24. 14 want to move up. What's that telling you? Are we going to join the MAC to keep those 14 fans in the fold knowing we might lose some of the basketball fans we have left?
Hey, I know that this board doesn't have the traffic it once did as everyone flocks to newer technology. Message boards are for old people now but guess what? The Boomers are the ones with the money so again if you get a grand total of 24 responses it's trying to tell you something. You ain't got the juice.

But you've been telling me something too and I haven't been listening. You're not interested data points, facts or evidence. The athletic admin is just lazy and stupid. It's a good soundbite that resonates with the uninformed. You should go into politics.

Agreed with all of that. There is zero chance this will happen. But it is a timely topic for a fan forum, because I think a preponderance of the evidence is that the MAC contacted ISU to gauge interest. This happened during an active search for an AD and would have surely been made known to the search committee. The MAC has a stated public preference for WKU as it's 14th team.

IF what I just said is true, and ISU administrators are competent (we both agree they are) then they invested some time in understanding how in the world UMass could've decided to haul it's basketball team out of the A-10 and into the MAC. That's a head-scratcher, isn't it? For ALL of the reasons ISU has refused to do that, they changed their minds. Why?

Anyway, sorting all of this out is one of the last "good" use cases for the internet. It's the common man's portal. The local media sure as hell ain't on the job.

 

[Birgs]

We've agreed on what is happening, but we don't agree on why it is happening. Or to put it another way we disagree on where the mindset originates.

Anyone taking an honest look at the situation can see that the athletic dept has historically responded to the interests and actions, as well as the disinterests and lack of action, of the Redbird Fanbase. Data points demonstrating that this is the case are all around us if we choose to look at them. I've posted hundreds over the years. You need more?

Look at the 2024 Basketball recruiting board. There is a thread about Jaheem Webber. He isn't coming to Illinois State now and he will likely never play 1 minute here. Doesn't matter, fans are INTERESTED. That thread has been viewed 19 THOUSAND TIMES! Ok, he's local so we'll throw that one out. How about the player below him. Jaden Smith Chicago Kenwood. He's not coming here. The thread has been viewed 7 THOUSAND TIMES. Now contrast that with the Football Board. The 2024 List so Far thread contains discussion and listing of over 30 names of players actually coming to Illinois State to perform. Over 30 real Redbird athletes and the entire thread has been viewed 7 thousand times. That makes it equal to 1 basketball player that will likely never play here.

Do you think the athletic dept. decides that? Do you think they manufacture those disparate levels of interest? No! It happened naturally. I blame Doug Collins but maybe it goes back even further than that and I don't expect it will change.

At that point you have two options. Recognize what your fanbase is telling you and focus on what they want or ignore the evidence and plow ahead. We have a thread on the Football Board discussing a move to the MAC and we have posts responding from a purely basketball perspective saying that the MVC is better than the MAC in basketball. Again, this is on the FOOTBALL BOARD! I think we know what they want.

There are lot of people in the athletic dept that would love for you to be right about FBS football requiring nothing more that good-sized push from the top. Kenny Mossman told you that many years ago. But they haven't lost their senses and they have seen the response or lack thereof to private fundraising efforts. They aren't blind to the interest levels of the fanbase.

We had a poll about joining the MAC. It's 3 1/2 days old and 24 people bothered to respond. 24. 14 want to move up. What's that telling you? Are we going to join the MAC to keep those 14 fans in the fold knowing we might lose some of the basketball fans we have left?
Hey, I know that this board doesn't have the traffic it once did as everyone flocks to newer technology. Message boards are for old people now but guess what? The Boomers are the ones with the money so again if you get a grand total of 24 responses it's trying to tell you something. You ain't got the juice.

But you've been telling me something too and I haven't been listening. You're not interested data points, facts or evidence. The athletic admin is just lazy and stupid. It's a good soundbite that resonates with the uninformed. You should go into politics.

No knock on any of the cast current or since; but Bowman | Greenspan->Zenger | Mossman was other-level stuff; It was incredible to witness upclose.

 

[Hamdonger]

I used to like the idea of going to the MAC under the pretense that it would be a "stepping stone" to eventually get to the Big 12 or another similar conference. If you're ONLY considering football, I can see a justification for considering this but what is the end game benefit?

Here's what Google Gemini's AI had to say about it......

Competitive Analysis: Missouri Valley Conference (MVC) vs. Mid-American Conference (MAC) for Illinois State University (ISU) with Revenue Considerations (March 2024 Update)​

Current Conference: Missouri Valley Conference (MVC)

Advantages:

• Success & Familiarity: ISU has a history of success in the MVC, potentially making it easier to compete for championships and NCAA berths. Familiarity with opponents and travel routes within a geographically concentrated conference can be beneficial. (Hoops In The Heartland 2024 - Missouri Valley Conference)
• Strong Basketball Programs: The MVC is known for its strong men's and women's basketball programs, which are core sports for ISU.

Disadvantages:

• Limited Exposure: The MVC receives less national media coverage compared to the MAC.
• Conference Strength: While competitive, the MVC may not offer the same overall strength across all sports as the MAC.

Revenue (MVC):

Based on the March 2024 USA Today Sports' NCAA financial reports (NCAA Finances: Revenue & Expenses by School - USA TODAY), here's a chart showing the ranking of MVC schools based on total athletic department revenue (2023 figures):

Rank	School	Revenue (Millions)
1	Missouri State University	$45.2
2	Illinois State University	$42.3 (estimated)
3	Drake University	$41.9
4	Bradley University	$40.1
5.	Valparaiso University	$39.8

drive_spreadsheetExport to Sheets
Travel Distance (MVC):

Using Google Maps: Google Maps, here's an estimate of average travel distances:

• Average: Approximately 200-250 miles (based on distances between member schools)
• Longest: ISU to Murray State University (Kentucky) - 332 miles
• Closest: ISU to Bradley University (Illinois) - Approximately 70 miles

Potential New Conference: Mid-American Conference (MAC)

Advantages:

• Increased Exposure: The MAC has a larger media footprint, potentially leading to more national recognition for ISU's athletic programs.
• Conference Strength: The MAC is generally considered a stronger conference across a wider range of sports.
• Potential for Increased Revenue: Increased exposure could lead to higher attendance, TV deals, and alumni engagement.

Disadvantages:

• Initial Challenges: Competing in a new conference with unfamiliar opponents could lead to initial struggles.
• Travel Costs: The MAC has a geographically wider footprint, potentially leading to significantly increased travel costs.
• Academic Fit: The MAC may not have the same academic focus as the MVC.

Revenue (MAC):

The 2024 USA Today Sports report shows the MAC's average revenue to be higher than the MVC's. Here's a chart showing the ranking of MAC schools based on total athletic department revenue (2023 figures):

Rank	School	Revenue (Millions)
1	Ohio University	$72.4
2	Kent State University	$68.1
3	University at Buffalo	$61.3
4	Ball State University	$55.2
5	(other MAC schools)

drive_spreadsheetExport to Sheets
Travel Distance (MAC):

Using Google Maps: Google Maps, here's an estimate of average travel distances:

• Average: Approximately 450-500 miles (based on distances between member schools)
• Longest: ISU to University at Buffalo (New York) - 643 miles
• Closest: ISU to Northern Illinois University (Illinois) - Approximately 115 miles (Note: Northern Illinois University is in the MAC, not the MVC)

Expenses (Considerations):

It's important to note that revenue alone doesn't tell the whole story. Athletic department expenses can also vary significantly. While obtaining detailed expense data for each school can be challenging, factors like head coach salaries, athletic facilities maintenance, and scholarships can all impact expenses.

Conclusion:

The decision for ISU depends on its priorities. If athletic success and familiarity are most important, staying in the MVC may be ideal, especially considering ISU's current ranking

Wow! You're hired!

 

[Hamdonger]

Dayum! Facts.

 

[Hamdonger]

No knock on any of the cast current or since; but Bowman | Greenspan->Zenger | Mossman was other-level stuff; It was incredible to witness upclose.

They were all quite forward thinking for the time frame, starting in mid-90's. And Kenny was a Welllman man, but worked very very well with Rick.

VERY enjoyable reading last couple of pages.

 

[Total Red]

IF what I just said is true, and ISU administrators are competent (we both agree they are) then they invested some time in understanding how in the world UMass could've decided to haul it's basketball team out of the A-10 and into the MAC. That's a head-scratcher, isn't it? For ALL of the reasons ISU has refused to do that, they changed their minds. Why?

Agree, I'd say overall our admins have been competent, but some were better than others. Pres Bowman/AD Zenger made a dynamic duo but even their push towards the FBS barely moved the needle.

I'll leave it to UMass to explain the move from the A-10 to the MAC, but I can tell you the results of their move to FBS football in 2012. They haven't had a single winning season and they've enjoyed a 5-31 record the last 3 years. Don't bring it weak to the FBS.

 

[jwa123]

We've agreed on what is happening, but we don't agree on why it is happening. Or to put it another way we disagree on where the mindset originates.

Anyone taking an honest look at the situation can see that the athletic dept has historically responded to the interests and actions, as well as the disinterests and lack of action, of the Redbird Fanbase. Data points demonstrating that this is the case are all around us if we choose to look at them. I've posted hundreds over the years. You need more?

Look at the 2024 Basketball recruiting board. There is a thread about Jaheem Webber. He isn't coming to Illinois State now and he will likely never play 1 minute here. Doesn't matter, fans are INTERESTED. That thread has been viewed 19 THOUSAND TIMES! Ok, he's local so we'll throw that one out. How about the player below him. Jaden Smith Chicago Kenwood. He's not coming here. The thread has been viewed 7 THOUSAND TIMES. Now contrast that with the Football Board. The 2024 List so Far thread contains discussion and listing of over 30 names of players actually coming to Illinois State to perform. Over 30 real Redbird athletes and the entire thread has been viewed 7 thousand times. That makes it equal to 1 basketball player that will likely never play here.

Do you think the athletic dept. decides that? Do you think they manufacture those disparate levels of interest? No! It happened naturally. I blame Doug Collins but maybe it goes back even further than that and I don't expect it will change.

At that point you have two options. Recognize what your fanbase is telling you and focus on what they want or ignore the evidence and plow ahead. We have a thread on the Football Board discussing a move to the MAC and we have posts responding from a purely basketball perspective saying that the MVC is better than the MAC in basketball. Again, this is on the FOOTBALL BOARD! I think we know what they want.

There are lot of people in the athletic dept that would love for you to be right about FBS football requiring nothing more that good-sized push from the top. Kenny Mossman told you that many years ago. But they haven't lost their senses and they have seen the response or lack thereof to private fundraising efforts. They aren't blind to the interest levels of the fanbase.

We had a poll about joining the MAC. It's 3 1/2 days old and 24 people bothered to respond. 24. 14 want to move up. What's that telling you? Are we going to join the MAC to keep those 14 fans in the fold knowing we might lose some of the basketball fans we have left?
Hey, I know that this board doesn't have the traffic it once did as everyone flocks to newer technology. Message boards are for old people now but guess what? The Boomers are the ones with the money so again if you get a grand total of 24 responses it's trying to tell you something. You ain't got the juice.

But you've been telling me something too and I haven't been listening. You're not interested data points, facts or evidence. The athletic admin is just lazy and stupid. It's a good soundbite that resonates with the uninformed. You should go into politics.

I don’t disagree with anything you have here. A well written and thoughtful post. Part of me wonders, though, if things might be different if football had not been treated like a red headed stepchild for decades past. Should past be prologue to the future? Hell if I know.

In all honesty I don’t see anything that indicates the MAC is eyeing ISU with lust in it’s heart.

 

[CaliRdBrd]

Not sure I would like this.
MAC Basketball:

Akron NET 113
Toledo NET 129
Ohio NET 148
Kent State NET 175
Bowling Green NET 229
Miami (Ohio) NET 237
C Michigan NET 261
Ball St NET NET 262
W Michigan NET 286
N Illinois NET 299
E Michigan NET 323
Buffalo NET 345

We’d be in 5th place. Progress!

 

[CaliRdBrd]

For fun, I gave the prompt to run a detailed analysis of the MVC vs the Big 12 and what it would take for Illinois State to join. I like what i see. It will take a significant commitment, a clearly articulated, powerful vision, and sustained effort from university leadership to accomplish this but if the right leader laid this out at the end goal in an unwavering way, this could possibly create a groundswell of momentum. Yes, not likely but dang, I don't like to live my life without what is considered unreasonable goals that are "out of reach". It makes the journey of life more worthwhile in my opinion...

Comparing the Missouri Valley Conference (MVC) and the Potential Prospects for Illinois State to join the New Big 12 Conference

The recent shift in college athletics with conferences like the Big 12 adding new members has created a dynamic landscape. Here's a breakdown comparing the MVC to the new, revamped Big 12:

Metrics:	MVC	New Big 12
Conference Type	Football Championship Subdivision (FCS)	Football Bowl Subdivision (FBS)
Number of Schools	12	14
Geographic Footprint	Midwestern United States	More spread-out, encompassing various regions
Academic Reputation	Primarily public universities with a mix of research and teaching institutions	A mix of public and private universities with a stronger focus on research universities
Athletic Success	Strong basketball programs, competitive across various sports	Top-tier conference in FBS football and strong programs across multiple sports
Television Exposure	Lower national media coverage	Extensive national TV deals with major networks like ESPN and FOX
Revenue	Lower overall athletic department revenue	Significantly higher athletic department revenue

drive_spreadsheetExport to Sheets
Challenges for Illinois State to reach the Big 12:

The jump from the MVC to the Big 12 is a significant one. Here's what ISU would likely need to achieve:

• Football Success: The Big 12 is an FBS conference with a strong focus on football. ISU currently plays in the FCS, so transitioning to FBS and achieving sustained success would be crucial. This would involve:
  • Upgrading facilities to FBS standards
  • Increasing athletic department budget for scholarships, coaching, and recruiting
  • Demonstrating consistent competitiveness at the FCS level
• Increased Revenue & Resources: The Big 12 schools generate significantly more revenue than MVC schools. ISU would need to find ways to increase its athletic department revenue through:
  • Increased ticket sales and attendance
  • Boosting alumni engagement and fundraising
  • Exploring lucrative naming rights deals and sponsorships
• Academic Profile: While not the sole factor, the Big 12 tends to have a higher concentration of research universities. ISU would need to demonstrate a strong academic profile alongside its athletic achievements.
• Market Size & Media Exposure: The Big 12 has a larger media footprint and attracts national attention. ISU would need to demonstrate a strong regional following and potential for increased viewership.

Overall, the road to the Big 12 for ISU is challenging but not impossible. Significant investment in athletics, a successful transition to FBS football, and a focus on both athletic and academic excellence would be essential.

Big 12 Revenue Ranking (as of March 2024):

Based on the March 2024 USA Today Sports' NCAA financial reports (NCAA Finances: Revenue & Expenses by School - USA TODAY), here's a ranking of revenue generation potential within the new Big 12 including a comparison with Illinois State.

Rank	School	Revenue (Millions)
1	Texas Tech University	$231.7
2	Oklahoma State University	$182.5
3	University of Kansas	$178.9
4	Kansas State University	$147.2
5	University of Arizona	$131.4
6	Arizona State University	$128.3
7	University of Colorado Boulder	$125.1
8	Brigham Young University	$119.2
9	University of Utah	$117.8
10	Texas Christian University	$112.4
11	University of Cincinnati	$98.6
12	University of Central Florida	$97.2
13	Baylor University	$89.1
14	University of Houston	$85.2
15	Illinois State University	$42.3 (estimated)

drive_spreadsheetExport to Sheets
(Note: Revenue figures might change slightly based on final reports)

Big 12 Presence in Illinois: Potential Advantage for Illinois State University (ISU)​

The Big 12's lack of presence in Illinois, a major media market with a passionate sports fanbase concentrated around Chicago, could be a strategic advantage for Illinois State University (ISU). Here's why:

Strong Alumni Base from Existing Big 12 Schools:

While obtaining precise figures for alumni residing in each state can be challenging, available data suggests a strong alumni base from existing Big 12 schools scattered across Illinois, particularly in the Chicago metro area. University websites and alumni association reports showcase large national alumni head counts for these schools.

Challenges & Estimation:

While national alumni figures exist, state-specific data is limited. However, considering the large national alumni bases of Big 12 schools and the popularity of these universities, it's reasonable to assume a significant number of graduates reside in Illinois, especially near Chicago. Alumni association chapters in the area might offer further insights.

Appeal for the Big 12:

This sizeable alumni base from existing Big 12 schools translates to potential benefits for the conference:

• Increased Market Potential: Alumni residing near Chicago might be more likely to attend Big 12 games hosted in Illinois, boosting ticket sales and attendance.
• Viewership Growth: A larger alumni base translates to a potential increase in viewership for Big 12 broadcasts, especially those involving their alma mater.
• Enhanced Conference Engagement: Alumni networks in Illinois could become more engaged with the conference, fostering a stronger overall Big 12 presence in the state.

Strategic Advantage for ISU with State Farm Sponsorship Potential:

By strategically highlighting:

• Its location near Chicago, a major media market.
• The presence of a sizeable alumni base from existing Big 12 schools residing in Illinois (further research can refine this estimate).
• The potential for increased market engagement, media exposure, and overall conference growth,

ISU can position itself as a compelling candidate for future Big 12 consideration. Additionally, ISU's hometown of Bloomington-Normal, Illinois, is also the headquarters of State Farm Insurance, one of the leading insurance companies in the United States. State Farm is known for its significant marketing budget, spending over $1.01 billion on advertising in 2022 according to S&P Global (Report: Auto insurers spent $10B on advertising in 2021).

Sponsorship Appeal:

If ISU were to join the Big 12, it would present a strategically attractive sponsorship opportunity for State Farm. The increased national exposure and association with a prestigious athletic conference could be highly beneficial for State Farm's brand awareness and marketing efforts. Moreover, sponsoring their hometown university would likely resonate well with the local community and potentially lead to increased customer engagement.

Overall, the lack of a Big 12 presence in Illinois, coupled with the state's large alumni base from existing Big 12 schools and the potential for a major sponsorship from State Farm, presents a unique strategic opportunity for ISU. By effectively leveraging its location, alumni network, and potential hometown corporate partnership, ISU can position itself competitively for future Big 12 membership.

I’d love to be in the Big 12. However, if we were to join, that would signal to the exiting teams that the Big 12 is sliding into obscurity and any respectable programs left would immediately look to leave.

 

[ChiRedbirdfan]

Bowman/Zenger brought it up and said we'd have to demand it. Probably recognized what you’re talking about here. We are in the process of hiring a new mgt team right now. This is the sound of opportunity knocking if you believe it's the right direction to pursue, on balance, considering all stakeholders. Maybe that's part of why it's taking so long, or stretching it out. Happening several levels above my pay grade. B12 is noise, not signal, in this discussion.

New visionary athletic leadership definitely needed. Btw agree with you…. We are not even fbs so how does the big 12 pipe dream even get started or is even worth discussing? One of the more bizarre threads in this forums history.

 

[ChiRedbirdfan]

For fun, I gave the prompt to run a detailed analysis of the MVC vs the Big 12 and what it would take for Illinois State to join. I like what i see. It will take a significant commitment, a clearly articulated, powerful vision, and sustained effort from university leadership to accomplish this but if the right leader laid this out at the end goal in an unwavering way, this could possibly create a groundswell of momentum. Yes, not likely but dang, I don't like to live my life without what is considered unreasonable goals that are "out of reach". It makes the journey of life more worthwhile in my opinion...

Comparing the Missouri Valley Conference (MVC) and the Potential Prospects for Illinois State to join the New Big 12 Conference

The recent shift in college athletics with conferences like the Big 12 adding new members has created a dynamic landscape. Here's a breakdown comparing the MVC to the new, revamped Big 12:

Metrics:	MVC	New Big 12
Conference Type	Football Championship Subdivision (FCS)	Football Bowl Subdivision (FBS)
Number of Schools	12	14
Geographic Footprint	Midwestern United States	More spread-out, encompassing various regions
Academic Reputation	Primarily public universities with a mix of research and teaching institutions	A mix of public and private universities with a stronger focus on research universities
Athletic Success	Strong basketball programs, competitive across various sports	Top-tier conference in FBS football and strong programs across multiple sports
Television Exposure	Lower national media coverage	Extensive national TV deals with major networks like ESPN and FOX
Revenue	Lower overall athletic department revenue	Significantly higher athletic department revenue

drive_spreadsheetExport to Sheets
Challenges for Illinois State to reach the Big 12:

The jump from the MVC to the Big 12 is a significant one. Here's what ISU would likely need to achieve:

• Football Success: The Big 12 is an FBS conference with a strong focus on football. ISU currently plays in the FCS, so transitioning to FBS and achieving sustained success would be crucial. This would involve:
  • Upgrading facilities to FBS standards
  • Increasing athletic department budget for scholarships, coaching, and recruiting
  • Demonstrating consistent competitiveness at the FCS level
• Increased Revenue & Resources: The Big 12 schools generate significantly more revenue than MVC schools. ISU would need to find ways to increase its athletic department revenue through:
  • Increased ticket sales and attendance
  • Boosting alumni engagement and fundraising
  • Exploring lucrative naming rights deals and sponsorships
• Academic Profile: While not the sole factor, the Big 12 tends to have a higher concentration of research universities. ISU would need to demonstrate a strong academic profile alongside its athletic achievements.
• Market Size & Media Exposure: The Big 12 has a larger media footprint and attracts national attention. ISU would need to demonstrate a strong regional following and potential for increased viewership.

Overall, the road to the Big 12 for ISU is challenging but not impossible. Significant investment in athletics, a successful transition to FBS football, and a focus on both athletic and academic excellence would be essential.

Big 12 Revenue Ranking (as of March 2024):

Based on the March 2024 USA Today Sports' NCAA financial reports (NCAA Finances: Revenue & Expenses by School - USA TODAY), here's a ranking of revenue generation potential within the new Big 12 including a comparison with Illinois State.

Rank	School	Revenue (Millions)
1	Texas Tech University	$231.7
2	Oklahoma State University	$182.5
3	University of Kansas	$178.9
4	Kansas State University	$147.2
5	University of Arizona	$131.4
6	Arizona State University	$128.3
7	University of Colorado Boulder	$125.1
8	Brigham Young University	$119.2
9	University of Utah	$117.8
10	Texas Christian University	$112.4
11	University of Cincinnati	$98.6
12	University of Central Florida	$97.2
13	Baylor University	$89.1
14	University of Houston	$85.2
15	Illinois State University	$42.3 (estimated)

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(Note: Revenue figures might change slightly based on final reports)

Big 12 Presence in Illinois: Potential Advantage for Illinois State University (ISU)​

The Big 12's lack of presence in Illinois, a major media market with a passionate sports fanbase concentrated around Chicago, could be a strategic advantage for Illinois State University (ISU). Here's why:

Strong Alumni Base from Existing Big 12 Schools:

While obtaining precise figures for alumni residing in each state can be challenging, available data suggests a strong alumni base from existing Big 12 schools scattered across Illinois, particularly in the Chicago metro area. University websites and alumni association reports showcase large national alumni head counts for these schools.

Challenges & Estimation:

While national alumni figures exist, state-specific data is limited. However, considering the large national alumni bases of Big 12 schools and the popularity of these universities, it's reasonable to assume a significant number of graduates reside in Illinois, especially near Chicago. Alumni association chapters in the area might offer further insights.

Appeal for the Big 12:

This sizeable alumni base from existing Big 12 schools translates to potential benefits for the conference:

• Increased Market Potential: Alumni residing near Chicago might be more likely to attend Big 12 games hosted in Illinois, boosting ticket sales and attendance.
• Viewership Growth: A larger alumni base translates to a potential increase in viewership for Big 12 broadcasts, especially those involving their alma mater.
• Enhanced Conference Engagement: Alumni networks in Illinois could become more engaged with the conference, fostering a stronger overall Big 12 presence in the state.

Strategic Advantage for ISU with State Farm Sponsorship Potential:

By strategically highlighting:

• Its location near Chicago, a major media market.
• The presence of a sizeable alumni base from existing Big 12 schools residing in Illinois (further research can refine this estimate).
• The potential for increased market engagement, media exposure, and overall conference growth,

ISU can position itself as a compelling candidate for future Big 12 consideration. Additionally, ISU's hometown of Bloomington-Normal, Illinois, is also the headquarters of State Farm Insurance, one of the leading insurance companies in the United States. State Farm is known for its significant marketing budget, spending over $1.01 billion on advertising in 2022 according to S&P Global (Report: Auto insurers spent $10B on advertising in 2021).

Sponsorship Appeal:

If ISU were to join the Big 12, it would present a strategically attractive sponsorship opportunity for State Farm. The increased national exposure and association with a prestigious athletic conference could be highly beneficial for State Farm's brand awareness and marketing efforts. Moreover, sponsoring their hometown university would likely resonate well with the local community and potentially lead to increased customer engagement.

Overall, the lack of a Big 12 presence in Illinois, coupled with the state's large alumni base from existing Big 12 schools and the potential for a major sponsorship from State Farm, presents a unique strategic opportunity for ISU. By effectively leveraging its location, alumni network, and potential hometown corporate partnership, ISU can position itself competitively for future Big 12 membership.

Question…where are you getting ISU’s 42 mil revenue number from? That is significantly higher than the last year (2022) revune amount of $29.8 mil that I can locate.

 

[BirdGrad2011]

New visionary athletic leadership definitely needed. Btw agree with you…. We are not even fbs so how does the big 12 pipe dream even get started or is even worth discussing? One of the more bizarre threads in this forums history.

MAC might be possible. B12 only if it implodes massively.

 

[ChiRedbirdfan]

MAC might be possible. B12 only if it implodes massively.

In the b12 explode scenario look how many other established fbs universities would be ahead of ISU for consideration. There are lots of them!

 

[ChiRedbirdfan]

Great comment with a lot of truth.

I will also add that, when I worked as faculty member and mid-level administrator at ISU, I and others understood that the university has a very conservative, risk-averse mindset and looks at big picture things that effect the over all health of the institution. This has served the university well. Its enrollment numbers and financial health have been remarkably stable during a time of declining enrollment at our directional peers, including NIU and many MAC schools.

So what does this mean for this discussion? ISU will not jump to something unless there is a strategic benefit. Meaning enrollment and finances. It will not take financial risk that could end up tarnishing its reputation in Springfield and with potential students. Which makes the financial investment in the COE that much more encouraging.

Perhaps there is a changing mindset about growth, reach, perception, and affiliation that could change how the university sees athletics.

But your bigger point about football engagement is probably more relevant.

Your comment about Isu’s changing stance on growth is one that hopefully happens. An organization choosing to not grow defies what they teach in their own business school about long term success and there is lots of research to support that position. I understand that there may be a period of time (measured in years not decades) when growth may not be advantageous but for ISU to not have grown for 40 to 50 years is surprising.

 

[redbirds2000]

In the b12 explode scenario look how many other established fbs universities would be ahead of ISU for consideration. There are lots of them!

Like the ENTIRE MAC, Sun Belt, Conference USA, and every FBS school not in a P5. We aren't even the first team they would take out of the state of Illinois!

 

[Total Red]

Your comment about Isu’s changing stance on growth is one that hopefully happens. An organization choosing to not grow defies what they teach in their own business school about long term success and there is lots of research to support that position. I understand that there may be a period of time (measured in years not decades) when growth may not be advantageous but for ISU to not have grown for 40 to 50 years is surprising.

In the last 40 years Illinois State University has built CEFCU Arena, Hancock 2.0, the Indoor Practice Facility, the Owen Strength and Conditioning Center, the Mounier Golf Training Center, the Gregory St. Tennis courts, Duffy Bass Field & The Paul Dejong Baseball Training facility, the Redbird Track & Field Complex, the Kneer Softball Complex, as well as upgrading the Men's Basketball locker room, meeting room and player lounge. I may have missed some things.

On the academic side Illinois State has added majors in Cybersecurity, Nursing and Engineering. If you go back a full 40-50 years, I am sure that I am missing many others.

The academic performance of Illinois State student-athletes has been exemplary as they flood the Honor Roll.

Illinois State University has positioned itself well above many other Illinois public universities that are battling declining enrollment. If you're looking for an affordable/quality public university education in the state of Illinois, your choices are basically the University of Illinois and Illinois State University.

The prudent use of resources along with plans for sound and steady growth has placed Illinois State University in an enviable position with excellent prospects for continued long-term success.

 

[DougSutton]

Like the ENTIRE MAC, Sun Belt, Conference USA, and every FBS school not in a P5. We aren't even the first team they would take out of the state of Illinois!

@ChiRedbirdfan
Curious what other teams in the state of Illinois would be chosen ahead of Illinois State. There was an article in a Big12 metro market newspaper around the 2007-2012 timeframe that specifically said that the Big 12 wanted to expand by adding a team in the state of Illinois because of the proximity to Chicago and other markets in the midwest. At that time, they mentioned Illinois State as a potential ideal candidate except for the lack of development of football facilities and football status, which we all know would have to change.

There is no appeal to have a directional school (Eastern, Western, Southern, Northern) from any state. DePaul, Loyola and Bradley don't have football so I have no idea what other schools would be more appealing than Illinois State.

Thus far, our leadership has not made a move like this a priority and from my perspective alone, I feel a non P5 (from now on, it's no more than Power 4. because the Pac 12 is basically finished) move to an FBS conference would be a wasted effort unless the end goal/commitment is to eventually earn the right to get to a Power 4 conference. And this would not happen in a few short years. A lot of things would have to fall in place for this to happen.

I agree that Dr Bowman and Zenger made a genuine effort to see what type of groundswell of support they could create with a Big 12 eventual goal could create and I greatly appreciate the effort they put in. Based on results, it wasn't successful and perhaps Illinois State is destined to be a minor player in college athletics relative to some of our other state universities near us.

If you take football out of the equation and look at all of our other athletic programs and especially the quality of university that Illinois State is, in addition to the geographic proximity to larger metro markets (Chicago, Indy, St. Louis) in the community of Bloomington/Normal, we absolutely could belong in a conference like the Big 12.

I would personally rank Bloomington/Normal ahead of these cities for many reasons:
1. Ames, Iowa
2. Provo, Utah
3. Waco, Texas
4. Lawerence, Kansas
5. Manhattan, Kansas
6. Stillwater, Oklahoma
7. Lubbock, Texas
8. Morgantown, West Virginia

Again, NOT suggesting this will ever happen and I know it absolutely could not unless or until we made a move to a conference like the MAC or CUSA and then built our football facilities and had football success. My fear is getting caught in the abyss of these conferences and never go beyond them. If that were the case, I personally would rather stay in the MVC for the time being. BUT, IF we had leadership that made a declaration of a vision for a Big 12 type of conference affiliation and they acknowledged that we must make this next move strategically to achieve that end result, I would 100% support a move.

@ChiRedbirdfan regarding the $42 million, that came from Google Gemini's AI and it did provide a source. I'm traveling now so not at the device that gave the prompt.