With Bison dominating and other top teams leaving, what's the future of FCS football

dpdoughbird06

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Yes we could easily compete with NIU and Ball St. in football if we wanted to but we don’t have enough people who want to. In areas where we have interest we do outperform those schools. You’re right, it’s not the 70’s anymore.


“The audience for NIU esports is also growing, with a record high of 800 members participating in the NIU Esports Discord community.”

“Both Ball State and Daleville established their esports programs in 2020. At Ball State, more than 50 students are involved in the varsity esports program, and more than 700 students participate in esports club activities.”

“The BBC is a great building for bowling and billiards, and this gives us the opportunity to make the activity room into something that will truly meet a student and university need,” she said. “And to be able to do that at the main entrance of the campus is just phenomenal.” The new (5.95 million dollar renovation) project ensures that as many Redbirds as possible can engage with the rapidly growing program. Redbird Esports quickly outgrew The Vault, a high-tech gaming space housed in the Student Fitness Center, and the Digital Innovation, Graphics, and Gaming Studio (DIGGS) in Julian Hall. In addition to the three varsity esports teams, there are 18 registered student organizations (RSOs) that fall under the Redbird Esports umbrella, boasting a cumulative membership of over 1,000 students.
What is that $6 million buying? The activity room isn’t that large, if memory serves. I’d have thought they were getting rid of bowling and billiards, given what they are spending on the eSports space.

In other news, my gym just rebranded as “eSporta” with a nice new backlit sign. Then two weeks later they announced they’re closing. So some killer signage could come super cheap!

Redbird eSporta could be a real conversation starter. Kind of like how Champaign D.P. Dough ended up selling Reggie Zones due to a menu printing mixup.
 

Bird Friend

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This whole playing for National Championships thing I just don't get. We've been to the National Championship game that no one other than the 2 teams playing knows or cares about exactly 1 time. We've hosted playoff games and no one shows up because of the weather. Maybe it's time to try something else.
Lacrosse?
 

TIMMY

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I'll pontificate more later on the bigger topic, but to Timmy, on this "no one knows or cares or shows up" issue, I'll just say, how is it different than playing in the Soup Bowl or Toilet Bowl or some other non-entity bowl? You're on ESPN, for God's sake, that's the gold standard for lots of folks around here. In fact, you're on more than once, since the semi's are on too. If you're in the MAC, some of the games are played on Tuesday or Wednesday and no one will show up for sure then.

But I am conflicted on the bigger issue, not sure there is a "win-win" to solve everyone's issues.
How is it different than the toilet bowl? Well, the MAC played in 8 Toilet Bowls and split the take on them. Ball State drew 6000 for their final week Wednesday game. We drew 3000 for our Indy State game the same week. As @Yogi said Ball States football budget is double ours. Well, they get 12,000-16,000 to their Saturday games. Again twice what we do. The MAC is a better league for football and football drives the bus.
 

dpdoughbird06

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How is it different than the toilet bowl? Well, the MAC played in 8 Toilet Bowls and split the take on them. Ball State drew 6000 for their final week Wednesday game. We drew 3000 for our Indy State game the same week. As @Yogi said Ball States football budget is double ours. Well, they get 12,000-16,000 to their Saturday games. Again twice what we do. The MAC is a better league for football and football drives the bus.
We reliably sell out Homecoming and Family weekend in a typical non-Covid year. The first home “tune-up” game always seems to fall on Labor Day weekend, which depresses attendance, and we always finish schedule at home during Thanksgiving Break since the previous weekend Redbird Arena hosts IHSA volleyball championships. The fifth game tends to feature a decent early November crowd.

The 3,000 for INSU last year was somewhat of an outlier - as was the Saint Xavier exhibition opener a few years ago - but Senior Day is always a tough draw.

Only solution to bumping attendance is winning, since our scheduling has historically worked against drawing consistently large crowds.
 

ISUBird

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This whole playing for National Championships thing I just don't get. We've been to the National Championship game that no one other than the 2 teams playing knows or cares about exactly 1 time. We've hosted playoff games and no one shows up because of the weather. Maybe it's time to try something else.
And people are going to care about the Potato Bowl after playing a team like Middle Tennessee?
 

TIMMY

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And people are going to care about the Potato Bowl after playing a team like Middle Tennessee?
10,217 people cared enough to go to this year's Famous Idaho Potato Bowl which is about twice the 5356 who cared enough to go to our last home playoff game against Richmond. ESPN cared enough that the payout was $600,000 for a game nobody cares about.

Hey, y'all money talks bullshit walks. Somebody watches. These bowl games get ratings.
 
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Birddog

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How is it different than the toilet bowl? Well, the MAC played in 8 Toilet Bowls and split the take on them. Ball State drew 6000 for their final week Wednesday game. We drew 3000 for our Indy State game the same week. As @Yogi said Ball States football budget is double ours. Well, they get 12,000-16,000 to their Saturday games. Again twice what we do. The MAC is a better league for football and football drives the bus.
This is a really interesting point. I don’t know if fans will be more excited and show for Indiana State or more for Ball State?
 

Birddog

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There are direct costs and direct revenues that are easier to distinguish but there are indirect potential benefits with branding, enrollment, and donations that makes this exercise a much more complex task.

Applications have been known to go up when schools make runs in NCAA basketball tournament, have meaningful FBS bowl wins, or enjoy athletic success in higher profile sports. Even if the total enrollment stays consistent, there may be a more selective acceptance rate. Donations generally increase during these time periods immediately following these accomplishments (athletic and nonathletic).

Athletics can also drive better branding to help obtain long term goals/donations such as larger enrollments, more selective enrollments, and introducing academic programs that produce an alumni population more able to donate (think engineering vs teaching). While the athletics alone doesn't necessary accomplish this, it can be an important component of the overall strategy that addresses it.
Right now at universities in the Midwest that are similar to ISU, enrollment is everything and ISU has done a good job of maintaining. But puthing resources in athletics is a questionable strategy. Look at enrollment at MAC schools. NIU once had about 25k student, now it is at about 17k and that’s is with an Orange Bowl appearance.

This is happening all over the MAC. Check this recent article about CMU.


Moving up is about the company you want to be associated with. Does ISU think of itself more akin to Ball State or Murray State.
 

Yogi

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I am a big fan of the mac but ISU is not ready for the move up Lefts get better and dominate the MVFC
 

MadBird

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How is it different than the toilet bowl? Well, the MAC played in 8 Toilet Bowls and split the take on them. Ball State drew 6000 for their final week Wednesday game. We drew 3000 for our Indy State game the same week. As @Yogi said Ball States football budget is double ours. Well, they get 12,000-16,000 to their Saturday games. Again twice what we do. The MAC is a better league for football and football drives the bus.
Well, there you go dragging money into the discussion! :)

My point was in response to you saying we've been in the playoffs but that no one knows or cares about or shows up. I wasn't talking about the money aspect - just that I don't think any more people, or probably "many" more, will care or show up if we played in the MAC or CUSA or played in the Idaho Potato Bowl or Lending Tree Bowl, etc. I'd be glad to be wrong about that.

The point about the money tho, gets at my last comment, which was that I'm having a hard time imagining a single path that will resolve all the issues. What's "good" for football might not be best for basketball and/or all the other sports. Would ISU's share of the MAC (or whichever conference) bowl payouts cover the additional costs of the extra schollies we'd need for FBS? Maybe so. Could we increase our attendance to a solid 15-17,000 every week, maybe so. Do you wanna play some games on Monday or Tuesday just for the dough? Maybe so. That's not gonna bring the alums down from Chicago, but maybe the money is what's important.

I hear the point some are making that with our hoops program hurting, it's a little rich for ISU fans to be bitching about the quality of programs being brought into the MVC. But it does beg the question, on the "rest of the program", is the MVC the right fit for ISU? Should "we" be seeking a home for all the sports that's a better fit for all the sports, including FB? I have always thought "merging" the MVC and MVFC was a good idea, if it could be done, and then figger out whether the entire conference should change football classifications. Maybe that's not the way to go anymore. I think for quite a while most of the hoops geniuses on the board felt like the MVC was "better" than the MAC - but that's maybe not so for sure anymore.

So, if if if - if "somebody" wants to make the commitment to spend the dough to play FBS FB, IF we can find a suitable conference for all the sports, maybe it's time for a change.
 

Virginia Redbird

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I don't follow the money in college football for the most part. I know conferences get TV money and it is split in some fashion with the members usually. More scholarships have to be funded (I can't imagine this is a major factor) and a big thing is student fees for revenue are capped in FBS at 55%/ where in FCS they can go as high as 70%. JMU's financial proposal to move to FBS included that each deep playoff run in FCS cost the school up to $600,000. If JMU qualifies for a bowl as a member of the Sun Belt the conference helps pay the expenses. I would guess the exposure of a conference member in a bowl game and the TV coverage makes it somewhat of an advertising investment for the conference.

This works for JMU all the way around. They get some regional games with teams like ODU, App State, and Coastal Carolina not too far away. ODU moving to the Sun Belt this year is a good move. They joined Conference USA a few years ago and one of the big complaints was the travel and loss of regional games and rivalries. They made the move anyway and were able to leverage the Virginia Tech home and home. Now they have made a good move and have regional games once again. All in just 13 years. They took the risk and made the move. I don't know the financials with ODU and how they fared. ISU has taken the conservative safe road and I can't knock that. The Sun Belt is rumored to be getting a new TV package and more money is involved. Some talk about the lack of interest in things like the "potato bowl". I don't know about that but I would be willing to drive to JMU for a home game with App State.

Some interesting stats in the FAQs link. Just some info on the details of the JMU's jump to FBS. ISU would have a whole different set of issues I am guessing but this gives an idea of what is involved and factored in.


 

Total Red

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ISU would have a whole different set of issues
Ka-Ching. This thread has thrown out the names of a lot of other schools as if they were equivalents to Illinois State, but they are not. If you want to make the jump from FCS to FBS you need one of two things or a combination of the two. 1) A large fanbase that supports your program at the FCS level and puts it over the top. That's ODU. They routinely sold out their stadium with over 19,000 fans while still playing FCS football. Likewise with Boise St. They were the early version of North Dakota St. Back in 1980 Boise St. won the 1-AA Championship (now FCS) while regularly drawing 20,000 fans. These schools got excited about FCS football and helped their schools move up. Our fans downgrade FCS football and stay home. 2) SugarDaddy (or Daddies) Coastal Carolina may be the best example of this because they moved up fast. Multimillionaire Joe Moglia (former CEO TD-Ameritrade) was a football coach light on credentials when he was hired as HC at Coastal. Exactly how much he donated to the program he coached has not been revealed, but facilities improved dramatically during his tenure. Ball State has a permanent IPF structure. The Scheurmann Family Indoor Practice Facility (below) was made possible by a gift from (you guessed it) the Scheurmann Family. John Scheurmann and his wife had previously donated 4 million towards the renovation of Ball State's football stadium.

indoor2_march2020.jpg


Meanwhile Illinois State is still working towards final funding of a semi-permanent air supported bubble style structure. What Timmy said is completely true - "Hey, y'all money talks bullshit walks." Let's see the money.

From 1976-1981 Illinois State Football tried being a 1-A independent. We brought it weak to the FBS of that era. That was a long time ago but what has changed? Do we have lots of enthusiastic football fans? Are donors providing us with the type of practice facility we really wanted? I want to try something else too but bringing it weak to the FBS isn't something new. It's what we were doing when I first got here.
 

Birddog

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I don't follow the money in college football for the most part. I know conferences get TV money and it is split in some fashion with the members usually. More scholarships have to be funded (I can't imagine this is a major factor) and a big thing is student fees for revenue are capped in FBS at 55%/ where in FCS they can go as high as 70%. JMU's financial proposal to move to FBS included that each deep playoff run in FCS cost the school up to $600,000. If JMU qualifies for a bowl as a member of the Sun Belt the conference helps pay the expenses. I would guess the exposure of a conference member in a bowl game and the TV coverage makes it somewhat of an advertising investment for the conference.

This works for JMU all the way around. They get some regional games with teams like ODU, App State, and Coastal Carolina not too far away. ODU moving to the Sun Belt this year is a good move. They joined Conference USA a few years ago and one of the big complaints was the travel and loss of regional games and rivalries. They made the move anyway and were able to leverage the Virginia Tech home and home. Now they have made a good move and have regional games once again. All in just 13 years. They took the risk and made the move. I don't know the financials with ODU and how they fared. ISU has taken the conservative safe road and I can't knock that. The Sun Belt is rumored to be getting a new TV package and more money is involved. Some talk about the lack of interest in things like the "potato bowl". I don't know about that but I would be willing to drive to JMU for a home game with App State.

Some interesting stats in the FAQs link. Just some info on the details of the JMU's jump to FBS. ISU would have a whole different set of issues I am guessing but this gives an idea of what is involved and factored in.


I believe the 55% rule that you mention above is a state of Virginia law and does not apply to ISU. Perhaps there is a similar Illinois law but I have never heard mention of one.

Even so, in 2019 ISU received about 36% of its athletic budget from student fees. By comparison, NIU got about 30% from student fees. And at JMU it was a whopping 78%!
 

Yogi

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Dreaming about FBS is fine for some of our fans but the administration knows that is all it is a pipe dream we can not support FBS football no $$ no fan base we need to win where we are at FCS with the coming drop off in available students tt hey are worried about keeping enrollment up
 

Virginia Redbird

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We do have an eSports program. One of the best in the country. Top 25 Schools For College Esports
Lots of interesting comments on this string. Being #1 in esports may be great but not high on the spectator sports lists I would guess. I would argue that even using the term sports in esports is subject to argument.

I posted the JMU articles just to show what they had to do to justify the move. Yes probably much different in Illinois. I have watched the ODU program go from nothing to FBS Sun Belt with mostly success. JMU was a solid FCS program already. Both these programs have one thing that ISU does not and that is a rabid fan base. Here in Virginia and particularly SE Virginia, football is THE sport. Youth, High School, College, or Pro. Most programs are well supported. A few years ago I attended a High School game between two longtime local rivals with the Conference Championship on the line. It was a great game and the attendance was approximately 12,000 fans. Not enough room in the stands and they were spread everywhere. Most years they fill the stands at ODU and always at JMU.

I have been gone from Illinois for well over 30 years and I don't know the local situation. I am coming away from this string with the understanding that ISU is happy at FCS and they have zero thoughts about moving up. ISU has little in the way of funding and runs an extremely austere program. There is almost zero fan support and essentially a great percentage of students, alumni or locals do not care at all and would not show up if the tickets were free (regular season or playoffs). There is almost zero alumni support or financial/donation support. Kind of a depressing picture. You have to almost be surprised they invested money for the different helmet decals last season. Probably put the budget in the red!
 

StLRedbird

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Lots of interesting comments on this string. Being #1 in esports may be great but not high on the spectator sports lists I would guess. I would argue that even using the term sports in esports is subject to argument.

I posted the JMU articles just to show what they had to do to justify the move. Yes probably much different in Illinois. I have watched the ODU program go from nothing to FBS Sun Belt with mostly success. JMU was a solid FCS program already. Both these programs have one thing that ISU does not and that is a rabid fan base. Here in Virginia and particularly SE Virginia, football is THE sport. Youth, High School, College, or Pro. Most programs are well supported. A few years ago I attended a High School game between two longtime local rivals with the Conference Championship on the line. It was a great game and the attendance was approximately 12,000 fans. Not enough room in the stands and they were spread everywhere. Most years they fill the stands at ODU and always at JMU.

I have been gone from Illinois for well over 30 years and I don't know the local situation. I am coming away from this string with the understanding that ISU is happy at FCS and they have zero thoughts about moving up. ISU has little in the way of funding and runs an extremely austere program. There is almost zero fan support and essentially a great percentage of students, alumni or locals do not care at all and would not show up if the tickets were free (regular season or playoffs). There is almost zero alumni support or financial/donation support. Kind of a depressing picture. You have to almost be surprised they invested money for the different helmet decals last season. Probably put the budget in the red!
The money is there for the move. There are schools that are playing football at the FBS level with budgets similar to ISUs. People forget that ISU had to make a pretty long list of facilities commitments to the MVC in order to get that invitation in '80. The point is that they weren't eager to extend the invite. ISU was viewed as having substandard facilities and a budget that would make it difficult to compete in the conference. To say we exceeded expectations is an understatement. Spack's up to the job. There will always be reasons to say it's too risky.
 
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