Who will be held accountable

[Manchester Matt]

The sensitivity on this board is out of control. Every question that gets asked is a personal attack on all things Redbird Basketball. I asked why other first-year coaches are having success and we aren't. In the context of the year, I don't see how that isn't something fans would want to know.

Maybe you can tell us since you’re the expert on these programs. Did they have freshmen or JUCO recruits signed by the previous regime who ended up staying? That’s obviously something Pedon didn’t as Muller signed nobody.

I guess my definition of success and yours might be a little different. Let’s take Milwaukee. Sure, the Panthers are 18-10, but they also just lost to a 3-26 Green Bay team, a bottom five D1 team. In addition, they just got plastered by a 14-15 Robert Morris team in their most recent game.

Would Milwaukee be 18-10 and be having “success” if they played in the Valley?

I don’t think so either.

Fairleigh-Dickinson? They are 16-13 and behind the basketball powers of Stonehill
And Merrimack in the Northeast. There are two teams with winning records in the league. It’s the worst conference in the country.

I’ll give ya Ball State. Fairly impressive team and season. They also were a near .500 team and had a much better returning roster situation.

You can compare this stuff on your end with your data, but the unfortunate thing for you, is there are counterpoints to the argument as well.

 

[Redbird222]

The sensitivity on this board is out of control. Every question that gets asked is a personal attack on all things Redbird Basketball. I asked why other first-year coaches are having success and we aren't. In the context of the year, I don't see how that isn't something fans would want to know.

I am not familiar enough with the Milwaukee or Farleigh situations to comment on those but I will comment on the other 2

Gipson brought 3 former MSU players (Sharpe, Haney, and Black) and he also brought a recruit Prim (brother of MSU player) that was headed to MSU to Northwestern St. Having players that are familiar with systems you are implementing and the coach with their strengths and weaknesses would definitely be a benefit. I am assuming they are also 4 players that would be advocates of yours in the locker room. It's also 4 pieces filled vs finding them in the portal. They are also 4 players that play significant minutes and arguably 3 of their top 5.

4 of the 5 starters at Ball St were there last year (Sellers, Sparks, Jacobs, and Pearson). The 5th starter and leading scorer transferred in from Missouri however he played the previous 2 years at Ball St (Coleman). I remember watching a game this year and featuring him and he said he never should have left Ball St. That's a pretty unique story. That would be like DJ Horne wanting to leave ASU and return to ISU. I don't think we can look at Ball St and see if Lewis is a great recruiter or not. He did get the talent to stay which there is something to be said for that.

Pedon has some accountability in my opinion.
Pedon left a scholarship open. It is easy to assess in retrospect that was probably not the best thing to do given how thin we are at guard after Sandage injury. He could have still had the scholarship available for 2023 and brought a grad player with one years eligibility similar to Knight. Also, Andrews entered the portal and Pedon took him back. I am not sure why but that was his decision. He also kept players on scholarship that didn't contribute very much the prior year. That is more understandable to me if they wanted to stay and were good teammates. However, I am not surprised of the results given the talent that was retained.

If he had filled the 13th scholarship and taken the opportunity to replace Andrews when he entered the portal, we probably would have won a few more games this year. Would we have won the conference ... I don't think so.

I think how Pedon manages the roster this year will shed a lot of light of what we should expect in the near future. I am willing to wait another year before I start speculating whether this hire is widely successful or not. BTW ... we won't know for a while if the 3 freshman recruits are going to be great or not but there is enough out there to support being optimistic for their future.

 

[Aggie]

I am completely fine with Pedon getting a complete free pass this year. ISU has to show improvement next year or the supporters, season ticket holders, and “casual” fans will walk away and my educated guess is you don’t bring them back again unless they go dancing. ISU also is not probably very high on most talented college eligible basketball players ultimate destination desire. So one has a long rebuild to relevancy and short expectations by supporters.

In the excuse department I was once told that I was going to get a life changing job that would start late May/early June. I then get a call on the first Thursday in March that I was starting that next Monday. Long story short we, my family and myself figured out a way to make it work. That said, Pedon has got to figure out a way to make it work. Big time college basketball is no longer an academic exercise. It is professional sports tied to a University campus and that institution. Whether we like it or not the portal and NIL have changed the game big time.

Where/what/when/how is really a somewhat market place decision now. And, believe me the market doesn’t care about a lot of the past. Markets care about the future and where is this all headed. Can ISU become a great mid major/NDS,SDS football program? Or, does ISU drift closer to Evansville status? In the end the”market” will hold ISU accountable. It looked to me the last bunch which was basically the three individuals mentioned earlier never seen the changes in college men’s major sports coming. Let’s hope this present bunch can adapt to the new surroundings.

Short term it may mean you have to coach to what you have and not what you want. Or maybe more what ISU can get. The old military saying, “planning is everything, but all plans do not survive first contact with the enemy.” I believe this probably applies to the football program as well. In agriculture I don’t plow everything in the fall with a 4020 anymore. We changed and adapted. I also believe some of the economic lessons I learned in the 1980’s will serve me well to remember them during the next coming economic turn down. Remember I posted about in game experience being more like the 1980’s Horton feel than a 2020 Chicago Bulls experience.

All I expect is if plan a doesn’t work, they at least have a plan b, and thinking about plan c.

 

[Redbird222]

I am completely fine with Pedon getting a complete free pass this year. ISU has to show improvement next year or the supporters, season ticket holders, and “casual” fans will walk away and my educated guess is you don’t bring them back again unless they go dancing. ISU also is not probably very high on most talented college eligible basketball players ultimate destination desire. So one has a long rebuild to relevancy and short expectations by supporters.

In the excuse department I was once told that I was going to get a life changing job that would start late May/early June. I then get a call on the first Thursday in March that I was starting that next Monday. Long story short we, my family and myself figured out a way to make it work. That said, Pedon has got to figure out a way to make it work. Big time college basketball is no longer an academic exercise. It is professional sports tied to a University campus and that institution. Whether we like it or not the portal and NIL have changed the game big time.

Where/what/when/how is really a somewhat market place decision now. And, believe me the market doesn’t care about a lot of the past. Markets care about the future and where is this all headed. Can ISU become a great mid major/NDS,SDS football program? Or, does ISU drift closer to Evansville status? In the end the”market” will hold ISU accountable. It looked to me the last bunch which was basically the three individuals mentioned earlier never seen the changes in college men’s major sports coming. Let’s hope this present bunch can adapt to the new surroundings.

Short term it may mean you have to coach to what you have and not what you want. Or maybe more what ISU can get. The old military saying, “planning is everything, but all plans do not survive first contact with the enemy.” I believe this probably applies to the football program as well. In agriculture I don’t plow everything in the fall with a 4020 anymore. We changed and adapted. I also believe some of the economic lessons I learned in the 1980’s will serve me well to remember them during the next coming economic turn down. Remember I posted about in game experience being more like the 1980’s Horton feel than a 2020 Chicago Bulls experience.

All I expect is if plan a doesn’t work, they at least have a plan b, and thinking about plan c.

I think I understood everything except plowing the field with a 4020

 

[SlackBooDom]

Maybe you can tell us since you’re the expert on these programs. Did they have freshmen or JUCO recruits signed by the previous regime who ended up staying? That’s obviously something Pedon didn’t as Muller signed nobody.

I guess my definition of success and yours might be a little different. Let’s take Milwaukee. Sure, the Panthers are 18-10, but they also just lost to a 3-26 Green Bay team, a bottom five D1 team. In addition, they just got plastered by a 14-15 Robert Morris team in their most recent game.

Would Milwaukee be 18-10 and be having “success” if they played in the Valley?

I don’t think so either.

Fairleigh-Dickinson? They are 16-13 and behind the basketball powers of Stonehill
And Merrimack in the Northeast. There are two teams with winning records in the league. It’s the worst conference in the country.

I’ll give ya Ball State. Fairly impressive team and season. They also were a near .500 team and had a much better returning roster situation.

You can compare this stuff on your end with your data, but the unfortunate thing for you, is there are counterpoints to the argument as well.

Milwaukee returned 9.9% of their minutes from last year. Fairleigh returned 20.3%. Illinois State is at 25.3%.

Writing off Pedon's first year because of what Muller left behind is more than fair. I also think it is appropriate not to make excuses, question the process, and want improvement. An assessment of the definition of success might be interesting. It feels that ISU has slipped so far beyond the mediocrity that the fanbase as a whole has just accepted where we are. I don't feel that way. I expect more.

Milwaukee is 18-10 with a similar strength of schedule to us - would they be having the same success in the MVC? I can't say that. Would we be above .500 in the Horizon? I don't know either. I'm just dealing with the fact that they have a first-year head coach who was hired ten days after ours and having more success. How did he do it and we didn't? It's an interesting conversation to be had.

 

[ISU_79]

There are no verbals! 3 recruits have signed.

 

[Popsto4]

Pops, you were warned about asking the Crazzy one questions.

As far as Pedon, I think you need four years either way (unless the prior three are all dumpster fires). We have had coaches have one year of success amongst others of mediocrity. Blind squirrel syndrome.

Lol

 

[Popsto4]

Gipson brought 3 Missouri State players to Northwestern St which Pedon didn't have that luxury.

The ability to recruit freshman and JUCO players is much harder for a program that has entire new staff. Most of those recruits have been courted for a long time prior March. That being said, the portal and transfers is a level playing field since it opens after the seasons end.

Pedon kept 6 players from the old regime and left one scholarship open. Those were his choices and he is accountable for that. We probably could have been more successful THIS year if he had gone a different route. I am assuming he will manage the roster a little bit different this year and hopefully we will have a more talented team for 23-24

Accountability for a First Year Coach with a pretty deleted roster is tricky I believe. The first goal was to complete the roster. Some probably think he did it quickly just to fill it. I think otherwise. He did what time permitted him and the staff to do. Trust me he did well enough pretty much on the fly. I have no knock against him in this situation. Trust me it could’ve been a lot worse. Yes a lot worse than what it actually is. A no turnover possession here or there, a made bucket here or there, a block out here or there or a made free throw here or there and the overall record would be looking completely different. With those things missing for a new team and it is what it is. Pedon have these kids in more games than not. I see that even with the record as overachieving. Believe it or not we know there are some spots lacking and need to be upgraded, playing hard for Pedon and the staff have had them in those close games.

 

[ChiRedbirdfan]

I think I understood everything except plowing the field with a 4020

i grew up on a farm....in the early 1980's we had a john deere 4020 farm tractor! a 4020 would certainly be obsolete now....that is a funny reference from my perspective as i have never heard anyone say 4020 since the early '80s

 

[Redbirdwarrior]

Me in 2019: If you fire Muller, you will have 2-3 years of being a 280+ RPI team.
Me in 2020: If you fire Muller, you will have 2-3 years of being a 280+ RPI team.
Me in 2021: If you fire Muller, you will have 2-3 years of being a 280+ RPI team.
Me in 2022: You fired Muller, which was probably the right play. But be ready for 2-3 years of being a bottom 3 Valley team.

Crazy in 2023 when ISU is a bottom Valley team with a 280+ RPI:

Boys, this is all part of the plan. Like it or not, this team is either exactly where it should be, given its situation, if not even a little ahead of expectations. When you clean house in a declining conference and have very few non-replacement level players on the roster, you need to let the process play out.

You fired Muller so you could stop going 18-14 and hopefully would trade invites to the CBI for invites to the field of 68. But you KNEW that in order to do that, you had to learn how to walk again.

Accountable? If this team wins 13 total games this year, where do we send the bonus check?

 

[Reggie Redbird]

While the current state of the program falls squarely on the shoulders of Dietz, Lyons and Muller (I would love to see ISU sue to prorate their pensions for gross nonperformance), Pedon HAS to start showing he can mine some talent from the portal and can recruit HS athletes at a significantly higher level.

Didn’t he do that? Mal, Luke, DB, Sandage, Knight. Petrakis was post depth filler for a year. I was happy we got some guys in Knight and Sandage, who when healthy, contributed but we can replace. There is no realistic way a coach is going to get 7-8 impactful players from the portal to walk into our situation. We were able to balance transfers across years nicely.

 

[LeonardFuestal]

I am completely fine with Pedon getting a complete free pass this year. ISU has to show improvement next year or the supporters, season ticket holders, and “casual” fans will walk away and my educated guess is you don’t bring them back again unless they go dancing. ISU also is not probably very high on most talented college eligible basketball players ultimate destination desire. So one has a long rebuild to relevancy and short expectations by supporters.

In the excuse department I was once told that I was going to get a life changing job that would start late May/early June. I then get a call on the first Thursday in March that I was starting that next Monday. Long story short we, my family and myself figured out a way to make it work. That said, Pedon has got to figure out a way to make it work. Big time college basketball is no longer an academic exercise. It is professional sports tied to a University campus and that institution. Whether we like it or not the portal and NIL have changed the game big time.

Where/what/when/how is really a somewhat market place decision now. And, believe me the market doesn’t care about a lot of the past. Markets care about the future and where is this all headed. Can ISU become a great mid major/NDS,SDS football program? Or, does ISU drift closer to Evansville status? In the end the”market” will hold ISU accountable. It looked to me the last bunch which was basically the three individuals mentioned earlier never seen the changes in college men’s major sports coming. Let’s hope this present bunch can adapt to the new surroundings.

Short term it may mean you have to coach to what you have and not what you want. Or maybe more what ISU can get. The old military saying, “planning is everything, but all plans do not survive first contact with the enemy.” I believe this probably applies to the football program as well. In agriculture I don’t plow everything in the fall with a 4020 anymore. We changed and adapted. I also believe some of the economic lessons I learned in the 1980’s will serve me well to remember them during the next coming economic turn down. Remember I posted about in game experience being more like the 1980’s Horton feel than a 2020 Chicago Bulls experience.

All I expect is if plan a doesn’t work, they at least have a plan b, and thinking about plan c.

That is the best post I have read on this forum about our men’s basketball program.
Reality check. It is very much needed.

 

[Redbird222]

Accountability for a First Year Coach with a pretty deleted roster is tricky I believe. The first goal was to complete the roster. Some probably think he did it quickly just to fill it. I think otherwise. He did what time permitted him and the staff to do. Trust me he did well enough pretty much on the fly. I have no knock against him in this situation. Trust me it could’ve been a lot worse. Yes a lot worse than what it actually is. A no turnover possession here or there, a made bucket here or there, a block out here or there or a made free throw here or there and the overall record would be looking completely different. With those things missing for a new team and it is what it is. Pedon have these kids in more games than not. I see that even with the record as overachieving. Believe it or not we know there are some spots lacking and need to be upgraded, playing hard for Pedon and the staff have had them in those close games.

Entering the season I questioned two things

1. Why did we not fill the last roster spot. I thought we were thin at guard (number of guards not quality). We have 5 scholarship guards assuming you include Knight as a guard (Burford, Kasubke, Knight, Poindexter, and Sandage). Most modern day sets are played with at least 3 guards. This didn't leave much room for any injuries, sickness, foul troubles, or a miss on recruiting. I would have liked to see that open scholarship given to a sixth guard. BTW, I haven't done any formal study or research but I believe having 7 scholarship guards for a mid-major is fairly common. Six would be on the lower end and 5 very uncommon. Pedon had to know and anticipate that we were walking a VERY thin line entering the season. That's why I say he is accountable for this.

2. Based on seeing Andrews play the two previous seasons, I thought there was limited upside. This was just my opinion which doesn't mean very much (BTW my opinion hasn't changed a year later). When he decided to enter the portal, I don't think he should have been offered a scholarship back. Muller did the same with a player who entered the portal, committed to another school but then came back when the coach left (all within 2 to 3 months) and I didnt agree with that decision then and I didn't agree with Pedon's. Admittedly I am not close to either situation and don't know if there are extenuating circumstances but in general I want players at ISU that are 100% dedicated to being a Redbird. I don't want players who enter a portal to see if there is a better situation and then come back when they decide there isn't. They entered the portal for a reason and if that didn't change then I would take them back. Anyhow, I would rather have seen that scholarship used on a different player given his upside and because he entered the portal. That's just my opinion but in hindsight I think we could have been better off adding some depth and talent. Right or wrong, I hold Pedon accountable for that decision because it was his.

I agree that there have been close games that have could have gone our way (we also had a couple of OT wins that went our way). That's why I think having 2 more players could have made a difference this year.

I like the players that have been recruited. They have the right attitude, they play hard, are good teammates, articulate, and represent the university well. ALL of those things matter to me. I just wish he would have filled 2 more roster spots with those types of kids to add to the talent and depth we so sorely need. I have faith that if the staff had added 2 more players it would have made an impact.

Pops, I think we can be still high on our coach and positive on the outlook, yet still hold him accountable for certain decisions. I am sure Pedon and staff are evaluating themselves tonsee if there are things they could do better in the future. Coaches are going to have misses or make decisions that they may regret in hindsight. That's just the reality. A good staff will learn from those misses, anticipate short comings better in the future, and have more successes than misses in the long run. I am optimistic coach will be able to do that.

 

[Buffett1]

I think I understood everything except plowing the field with a 4020

Haha. John Deere’s work horse. Still pulling the plow today n some fields.

 

[Redbirdfan06]

Me in 2019: If you fire Muller, you will have 2-3 years of being a 280+ RPI team.
Me in 2020: If you fire Muller, you will have 2-3 years of being a 280+ RPI team.
Me in 2021: If you fire Muller, you will have 2-3 years of being a 280+ RPI team.
Me in 2022: You fired Muller, which was probably the right play. But be ready for 2-3 years of being a bottom 3 Valley team.

Crazy in 2023 when ISU is a bottom Valley team with a 280+ RPI:

Boys, this is all part of the plan. Like it or not, this team is either exactly where it should be, given its situation, if not even a little ahead of expectations. When you clean house in a declining conference and have very few non-replacement level players on the roster, you need to let the process play out.

You fired Muller so you could stop going 18-14 and hopefully would trade invites to the CBI for invites to the field of 68. But you KNEW that in order to do that, you had to learn how to walk again.

Accountable? If this team wins 13 total games this year, where do we send the bonus check?

I agree with most of what you said other than the fact we fired Muller so we could stop going 18-14. Muller was 45-70 his last 4 years. Those years of 18-14 were well in the rear view mirror. He might still be coaching if he could have mustered some 18-14 seasons towards the end.

 

[ScoreboardDotRace]

I agree with most of what you said other than the fact we fired Muller so we could stop going 18-14. Muller was 45-70 his last 4 years. Those years of 18-14 were well in the rear view mirror. He might still be coaching if he could have mustered some 18-14 seasons towards the end.

I feel before the Chatman injury that team was pretty close to an 18-14 team. But injuries are part of the deal and it was time to move on anyway.

Pre-injury I enjoyed watching that offense more than this one at any point in time this season. This has been tough. Hoping with a full staff and recruiting off-season that changes in 23-24.

 

[Aggie]

I am completely fine with Pedon getting a complete free pass this year. ISU has to show improvement next year or the supporters, season ticket holders, and “casual” fans will walk away and my educated guess is you don’t bring them back again unless they go dancing. ISU also is not probably very high on most talented college eligible basketball players ultimate destination desire. So one has a long rebuild to relevancy and short expectations by supporters.

In the excuse department I was once told that I was going to get a life changing job that would start late May/early June. I then get a call on the first Thursday in March that I was starting that next Monday. Long story short we, my family and myself figured out a way to make it work. That said, Pedon has got to figure out a way to make it work. Big time college basketball is no longer an academic exercise. It is professional sports tied to a University campus and that institution. Whether we like it or not the portal and NIL have changed the game big time.

Where/what/when/how is really a somewhat market place decision now. And, believe me the market doesn’t care about a lot of the past. Markets care about the future and where is this all headed. Can ISU become a great mid major/NDS,SDS football program? Or, does ISU drift closer to Evansville status? In the end the”market” will hold ISU accountable. It looked to me the last bunch which was basically the three individuals mentioned earlier never seen the changes in college men’s major sports coming. Let’s hope this present bunch can adapt to the new surroundings.

Short term it may mean you have to coach to what you have and not what you want. Or maybe more what ISU can get. The old military saying, “planning is everything, but all plans do not survive first contact with the enemy.” I believe this probably applies to the football program as well. In agriculture I don’t plow everything in the fall with a 4020 anymore. We changed and adapted. I also believe some of the economic lessons I learned in the 1980’s will serve me well to remember them during the next coming economic turn down. Remember I posted about in game experience being more like the 1980’s Horton feel than a 2020 Chicago Bulls experience.

All I expect is if plan a doesn’t work, they at least have a plan b, and thinking about plan c.

 

[FriscoBird90]

IMHO, based upon the breadth and depth of the crater from which Pedon is trying to pull this program, I think reasonable expectations should follow along the line of "sleeps, creeps, leaps." This first year has proven to be a "sleeper" (10+ wins) as he works with what was available on relatively short notice while trying to implement his system. Hopefully year number two will be at least a "creeper" (14+ wins) as the holdover talent develops better chemistry and knowledge/comfort with the system while the new players of his first real recruiting class are getting their first exposure to it; then year three will be a "leaper" (20+ wins) as yet another recruiting class of new talent is added to the mix while the holdover talent is on year two or more of their experience with the system and each other. If by the end of year three there are no signs of being at or near the "leap" stage, then a warm/hot seat would be in order during year number four.

 

[Adunk33]

IMHO, based upon the breadth and depth of the crater from which Pedon is trying to pull this program, I think reasonable expectations should follow along the line of "sleeps, creeps, leaps." This first year has proven to be a "sleeper" (10+ wins) as he works with what was available on relatively short notice while trying to implement his system. Hopefully year number two will be at least a "creeper" (14+ wins) as the holdover talent develops better chemistry and knowledge/comfort with the system while the new players of his first real recruiting class are getting their first exposure to it; then year three will be a "leaper" (20+ wins) as yet another recruiting class of new talent is added to the mix while the holdover talent is on year two or more of their experience with the system and each other. If by the end of year three there are no signs of being at or near the "leap" stage, then a warm/hot seat would be in order during year number four.

This is where I have been as well. I had never heard "sleeps, creeps, and leaps" before but I think it is perfectly fitting! Year 1, establish the type of program he wants to have-bring in character guys who will help attract other high character guys, basement of the MVC. Year 2 build on it and be middle of the pack. Year 3, compete for top 4 in the league.

I believe he is on a 4-year deal, so I'm with you. If improvement isn't abundantly clear by end of year 3, the hot seat clicks on in year 4 as it's his contract year anyway.

 

[isuquinndog]

If you want Pedon to stay, you should hope Ohio State does well enough for them to keep their coach. IMO.