Valley players entering the portal

BirdGrad2011

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Didn't Muller go to two NIT's? Both times to the 2nd round too?
2 in 10 is fantastic

Come On Please GIF by NBA
 

Reggie Redbird

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Dan didn’t recruit unless he got a vacation out of it. He didn’t try for Chastain until he made state. He pissed off countless Illinois kids by ignoring them. DB is on the roster and said similar. Never tried for Krutwig. Never tried for Avila. Don’t worry he’d go to Florida for Matt Hein. We lost Dana, we lost Ward, we lost recruiting.

He didn’t get out to high schools. He didn’t get out to open gyms. Pedon did and does. Coaches have tweeted it’s the first time seeing ISU come in. Recruiting was beneath him.
He went to Florida for David Ndiaye. Hein was the player he gave a scholarship to as a deal to get Ndiaye. A horrible recruiting move that tied up 2 scholarships in a way that hurt us, but it wasn’t to go get Hein.

I 100% agree he didn’t recruit locally, and it hurt. But it seems the HS places he went to were not here. He wasn’t just going on vacation though.
 

BirdGrad2011

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He went to Florida for David Ndiaye. Hein was the player he gave a scholarship to as a deal to get Ndiaye. A horrible recruiting move that tied up 2 scholarships in a way that hurt us, but it wasn’t to go get Hein.

I 100% agree he didn’t recruit locally, and it hurt. But it seems the HS places he went to were not here. He wasn’t just going on vacation though.
David Ndiaye was such a great addition it cost 2 scholarships. Throw in Keyshawn that forgot how to shoot his senior year. Emon Washington who didn’t even make the roster on his D2 squad. 2 scholarships to twins that weren’t D1 caliber. Yarbrough who had more run ins with the law than anything. Let’s not forget our rotation was basically 7 players at the end of the season. Sandage got hurt and Petrakis had a really down year. The rest? All Dan Muller players.

Keep defending the man that took a team that won 20 games 4 out of 5 years and led them to constant Thursday night finishes.
 

Redbird82

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Not sure why I’m posting since it’s a pointless argument, but I get tired of Jank always getting a bum rap on the board. It wasn’t 10 years of bad with Dan , but the last 3-4 sure were, and admittedly Dan did have one year better than any Jank had. Jank also inherited some talent, but he took over a program that Was a dumpster fire after Richardson/Moser. Ok he played a weak schedule, didn’t stop him from making 4 NITs in 5 years. 4 top 3 finishes in a league that had Wichita and Creighton. Lost 2 of his title games in OT. He wasn’t Stallings or Donewald and some want to make Muller our to be Richardson/Moser, he wasn’t. But overall no Way he was as successful as Jank.
 

BirdGrad2011

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Not sure why I’m posting since it’s a pointless argument, but I get tired of Jank always getting a bum rap on the board. It wasn’t 10 years of bad with Dan , but the last 3-4 sure were, and admittedly Dan did have one year better than any Jank had. Jank also inherited some talent, but he took over a program that Was a dumpster fire after Richardson/Moser. Ok he played a weak schedule, didn’t stop him from making 4 NITs in 5 years. 4 top 3 finishes in a league that had Wichita and Creighton. Lost 2 of his title games in OT. He wasn’t Stallings or Donewald and some want to make Muller our to be Richardson/Moser, he wasn’t. But overall no Way he was as successful as Jank.
Most of this. I’m just bitter that Dan and Larry Lyons let the program get to that low.
 

BirdGrad2011

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Can we get this thread back to Valley players entering the portal and off the never ending impossible to prove your point discussion about Jank/Dan.
Benson’s article spoke about not all player meetings being done prior to spring break. I’d be shocked if we don’t hear more this week or next week. Hopefully some clarity on how many scholarships will be open. NCAA Tourney is proving its still a guards game and we need that as well as some more contributing bigs.
 

TBus_Birds

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Never tried for Krutwig. Never tried for Avila. Don’t worry he’d go to Florida for Matt Hein.
Hindsight recruiting is my favorite! Can't miss!

And according to this site's recruiting board, they were in contact with Avila. But "never tried" is better for your argument, I get it.
 

Redbirdwarrior

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Anyone who thinks Muller's MVC championship squad wasnt completely screwed by the commitee and wasn't, in every way, a tournament at-large team is either lying or has no idea what they are talking about.

That team was the best team in program history. It just was. And it proves that the NCAA decides who can win and who can't.

Want to know why we have not had a tourney team in so long? Politics, money and corruption. Dan Muller went 28-7 (17-1) and somehow didnt make the show. Nope, I'll go to my grave saying that counts as a tourney team in my book.
 

Humdinger

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Let’s not forget our rotation was basically 7 players at the end of the season. Sandage got hurt and Petrakis had a really down year. The rest? All Dan Muller players.
Hahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Sandage. Burford. Knight. Kasubke. Poindexter. Petrakis. All had major minutes besides the dude who's on to his 4th school soon. Ummm Ummm...who recruited these guys? How many games did we win?
 

Humdinger

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Anyone who thinks Muller's MVC championship squad wasnt completely screwed by the commitee and wasn't, in every way, a tournament at-large team is either lying or has no idea what they are talking about.

That team was the best team in program history.
They were good, and hold the most wins, and I (just like all of you) rooted like heck for them, Dan gets full credit and I thought they should dance...but they were def not the best team in program history, even though they have the mark for most wins. I'd take teams from Smithson, Donewald, and Stallings era over '16-'17. JMO, though, and I respect yours.👍
 
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BirdGrad2011

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Hahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Sandage. Burford. Knight. Kasubke. Poindexter. Petrakis. All had major minutes besides the dude who's on to his 4th school soon. Ummm Ummm...who recruited these guys? How many games did we win?
You’re so close…
 

Reggie Redbird

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Anyone who thinks Muller's MVC championship squad wasnt completely screwed by the commitee and wasn't, in every way, a tournament at-large team is either lying or has no idea what they are talking about.

That team was the best team in program history. It just was. And it proves that the NCAA decides who can win and who can't.

Want to know why we have not had a tourney team in so long? Politics, money and corruption. Dan Muller went 28-7 (17-1) and somehow didnt make the show. Nope, I'll go to my grave saying that counts as a tourney team in my book.
Completely screwed? Yes. Best in program history? No. 77-78 Smithson, 97-98 Stallings. Maybe compared to the 80s NCAA teams.

For reference, that 77-78 team lost 4 games. @ #11 UNLV by 2, @ #6 DePaul, and @ Larry Bird’s Sycamores by 2 in the NIT after beating #4 INSU in Horton.

While the team had a bad loss losing at UC-Santa Barbara, they bounced back and beat Cal State Fullerton who made the Elite 8.
 
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Redbird222

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Wow I wasn't on the board for a few days and this thread ran a muck. Where do I start

1. Poor assistant coaches = poor recruiting. Follow the assistant coach trail of Dan and you can see when the tide changed. Throw in some bad luck with some permanent injuries (Williams Chastain, and Bruniga) coupled with some late roster voids like Clarance going pro and Copeland ineligible due to one class short and rosters got even thinner.

2. Dan proved what everyone knows already - you can't win when you you are short on talent and Pedon confirmed it last year. Now it's Pedon's turn and job to try and infuse talent.

3. How many previous coaches dealt with a plane crash during their coaching era? I think a little compassion and understanding that there were impacts need to be considered. He still needed to be let go but it did impact that coaching staff.
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4. The coaches prior to Dan and Pedon never had to deal with the portal, transfer rules that allowed immediate eligibility, huge conference realignments, increasing disparate TV revenues, NET, and COVID rules (players opting out and also getting extra years). Dan didn't adapt and manage the changing landscape very well. The changes also didn't help him. I am not sure how many of our previous coaches would have handled this huge dynamic change in college basketball if it had happened in their era. Donewald? Stallings? They both seem like compromising and quick to change coaches (sarcasm). Now let's throw NIL in there to help level the playing field even more for ISU. It's to the point where it is going to be harder and harder to compare coaches across eras.

5. How do we measure whether an ISU coach is successful or not. Up until 2006 I would say NCAA invitations. Since 2006 when the MVC received four bids, the NCAA has done eveything in its power to stack the chips against the mid majors. The ever changing lanscape the next 15 years has made it almost impossible for 2 bid leagues. There were 5 at large bids for non P6 schools. The Mountain West had 3, WCC had 1, and American had 1. No A10 or MVC at large teams. Wait until Houston, Central Florida, and Cincinnati leave the American and BYU leaves the WCC for the BIG 12. That will make it even more difficult. Going forward I think more often than not the MVC will be a one bid league with an occasional 2 bids. Based on that, I have recasted my definition of what a successful ISU coach looks like ... competes routinely for regular season championships, gets to the title game often, and God willing wins one.

I believe a coach hired in 2022 probably needs a couple new characteristics in order to create/restore a successful mid major program. Coaches need to manage roster talent in the AAU era like of college basketball. It's one thing to recruit talent but how to do you retain talent and turn over less talent (yep that's part of it too). I still think the better teams in the mid majors have talent, experience, and have played together for years. I think you have to be intentional on who you you recruit both for talent and improving your odds of retaining them. I think you will need a coach that is good at x and os but also at building relationships with the players. Pedon seems to be good with the later.

Personally I don't see the need to bash Dan all the time. There were some good things earlier in tenure but he definitely needed to move on.

I can see some signs that let me be optimistic about coach Pedon coupled with a dose of reality that there is still a lot to be done and proven ... some he inherited and some he controlled.
 

Birdfriend72

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Cool Dan had 1 good year. You point to how Smithson, Donewald, and Stallings recruited really good players. Muller would’ve never fallen off if he gave any effort. The stories that have come out since he left are absolutely insane. It’s no wonder it got so bad so fast. He put zero effort into recruiting kids that wanted to be here.
We seem to live off one NIT year that really seem to define Dan! The big choke in the NIT! If this is our goal- the NIT and one good year…this is why we struggle!
 

Birdfriend72

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Didn't Muller go to two NIT's? Both times to the 2nd round too?
Again- in 10 years! Your measuring stick is small! Wichita fired their coach fir having a winning record and making an NCAA tournament appearance! We need to start having some accountability for the success of our coaches- and stop being satisfied with 2-3/10 NIT appearances!
 

dpdoughbird06

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CBI semis too (13-14) after we hosted Texas A&M. That sounds so strange, talking about a P5 school in RBA.
The only sports bet I’ve ever placed! (I happened to be in Vegas for the Pizza Expo.) That Redbird team had maybe lost once at RBA all year, and A&M was not prepared to deal with Reggie Lynch, if I recall.
 

dpdoughbird06

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We seem to live off one NIT year that really seem to define Dan! The big choke in the NIT! If this is our goal- the NIT and one good year…this is why we struggle!
Not only did we live off of it, we re-upped his contract in such a way that he could still leave pretty much without penalty for a better job, but if he cratered we were on the hook for a revolving five-year payout. I believe LL renewed the deal twice afterwards, too.

But to retain a Valley coach who’s getting looks from bigger schools, it’s what you do. Or wish him well and start from scratch again.
 

BirdGrad2011

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Not only did we live off of it, we re-upped his contract in such a way that he could still leave pretty much without penalty for a better job, but if he cratered we were on the hook for a revolving five-year payout. I believe LL renewed the deal twice afterwards, too.

But to retain a Valley coach who’s getting looks from bigger schools, it’s what you do. Or wish him well and start from scratch again.
You are absolutely right, but the way it was structured was not even close to what you do. Your first paragraph describes exactly what was wrong with it.
 
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