OT-tuition refunds

[gobirds85]

This would probably be lost in other topic but if Quinnie needs to move it down, it's his call.

There seems to be a groundswell of support and litigation coming from students/customers of universities for not receiving what they paid for...in this instance, the "on campus" experience. People want a portion of their tuition $$$ back as they are feeling short changed and I can see their point. I understand that some universities are having a tough time but that doesn't give them the right to stiff their customers. We all signed a contract with the respective university, paid in advance and expect that university should, in good faith, hold up their end of the bargain.

I'm interested in your opinions because I have been approached by some other parents from UK, yes my daughter goes there, and they are interested in filing a class action lawsuit against UK. I believe a lot of schools will be put in this position as the year plays out.

Who knows, but this might force the closing of some smaller, private and public schools around the country. Between technology and the shrinking middle class I feel the four year college experience is in trouble.

Thoughts from you guys? Any of you legal eagles out there.

 

[TBS_20]

I understand where they are coming from. They should get some of the room and board back if they are housed by the university but not the education part because they are still getting that regardless where it comes from.

 

[TBS_20]

Also, we are seeing first hand that on campus isnt really needed as much at this point because of technology. It could be done but most colleges were probably unprepared. Students could save a TON of money by not going to campus on a regular basis, if at all.

 

[Hamdonger]

Interesting topic. Interesting times. Crazy times. Lots of Cocoa Puff eaters. Me too sometimes.

I'm curious if there's ever been legal precedent set previously...even remotely in the neighborhood of what you're talking about.

So let's say it moves forward. Does that then set the table for high school students and parents to sue? Junior high? Grade school...preschool? I realize most aren't paying to go to prep. Yet private school does come into question. Is the overall precedent (to be) established based on the experience of college...or the money exchange?

Somebody's licking their chops I imagine. We've got to be the most litigious nation in the world.

 

[WoodlandWarrior]

As a retiree (40 years) of a major Fortune corporation, I continue to be amazed at the impracticality of useless majors that continue to be offered at many colleges and universities. Many advisors have no clue relative to the actual (make that non-existent) market value of a marginal field of study. Realistically, considering the cost of a college education, prospective students should have a handle on job opportunities for their chosen major. Obvious choices offering payback would include engineering, accounting, finance, actuarial science, insurance, marketing, industrial technology, physical and occupational therapy, nursing, medical technology, information technology, and education. Useless choices, IMO only, would be subjects such as art, gender studies, the various sub-groups of ethnic studies, anthropology, philosophy, etc. Truthfully, few major corporations will seriously consider a major that offers little value or relevance to the traditional functional areas of the employer. Removal of majors that result in barista positions at Starbucks should be a goal of every prudent, cost minded college.

 

[gobirds85]

I understand where they are coming from. They should get some of the room and board back if they are housed by the university but not the education part because they are still getting that regardless where it comes from.

So if you bought a car with the deluxe option package, signed the contract, paid the amount agreed upon and then went to pick the vehicle up and discovered that the car you are actually getting does not have the deluxe option package, would you still want to pay the same amount for the lesser item? It's still a car, right?

 

[RedbirdFanClub1]

I understand where they are coming from. They should get some of the room and board back if they are housed by the university but not the education part because they are still getting that regardless where it comes from.

So if you bought a car with the deluxe option package, signed the contract, paid the amount agreed upon and then went to pick the vehicle up and discovered that the car you are actually getting does not have the deluxe option package, would you still want to pay the same amount for the lesser item? It's still a car, right?

This makes no sense. There wasn’t a global pandemic dramatically impacting the health of the world that caused the deluxe option package to no longer be available. It’s just a straw man. If you wanted to make a car comparison, it would be like buying a car you expect to last you x years and upon purchasing, a smog that destroys cars starts to develop and your new car doesn’t last you x years. What would you do? Take it back?

Tuition is tuition. Just because the world changed and you were forced to adjust your learning doesn’t mean you are getting your tuition back.

 

[Bird Friend]

Good lawyers for the universities will find a way to change the 'tuition refund' to 'tuition credit' if it goes class action. Nobody really gets anything of tangible value. From my own experience dealing with arbitration cases, a good lawyer can turn this against the plaintiffs very easily. Did the student receive instruction for the course content promised by the syllabus and course description? If yes, then what's the basis for the lawsuit? "Experience" is an esoteric and subjective concept. Plus the course descriptions and syllabi rarely include a promised "experience". In their basic mission, universities provide education. "Experiences" are not their mission, though they can be useful for marketing purposes.

That said, good plaintiff lawyers will sift through every course description and syllabus, marketing material, handbooks, by laws, etc. to find anything that strongly implies an experience that was lost with lock-downs.

In the long run, the only ones who'll benefit from a class action lawsuit are the attorneys and a small group plaintiffs who started the process. And programs through companies like Coursera will benefit significantly when universities are forced to reduce faculty due to lack of funding. And remember, if you join the class action suit, you're bound by their outcome with no recourse for personal grievances. Sometimes that fine, sometimes not.

The university concept has been under fire for several years, with many experts calling for fundamental changes in higher education. The current crisis will drive some changes. Like many industries higher ed will end up changed in some fundamental ways. The value of higher ed degrees has already been slipping, especially in non-vocational subjects (i.e. liberal arts). Smaller universities like IWU are already shifting toward a more vocational curriculum (IWU is dropping their college of music and increasing business-oriented presence).

Community colleges will probably gain in prominence in the short term. Four year schools would be smart to work with CCs to share facilities, curricula, and faculty. As a country, if we value higher ed as we say we do, then CC should be free. Move as much teaching to online as is feasible and appropriate, remembering that some course work cannot be done online (such as how many people want to have a nurse who learned how to give shots thru an online course with no hands on training? Or want to fly in a plane where the welders who repair planes have only been taught online with no hands on experience?)

It's high time for admin/exec salaries to be questioned in detail, but that's my opinion for all industries. It's high time for all industries to consider their contingency plans AND FUNDING for mega crises, such as pandemics. All organizations should have had plans in place to mitigate the financial and emotional impact of a natural, national disaster. For those who say "but nobody could have expected", bullshit. Epidemic and pandemic specialists have been warning of an impending crisis for over two decades. Hell, the Ebola and H1N1 scares should have sent organizations scrambling to make plans.

Nope. We failed. We failed big time. Our focus on short term profit and stock performance left us exposed. And is still driving decisions.

Time to put on your mask, zip up your hazmat suit, and get back to work.

 

[gobirds85]

I understand where they are coming from. They should get some of the room and board back if they are housed by the university but not the education part because they are still getting that regardless where it comes from.

So if you bought a car with the deluxe option package, signed the contract, paid the amount agreed upon and then went to pick the vehicle up and discovered that the car you are actually getting does not have the deluxe option package, would you still want to pay the same amount for the lesser item? It's still a car, right?

This makes no sense. There wasn’t a global pandemic dramatically impacting the health of the world that caused the deluxe option package to no longer be available. It’s just a straw man. If you wanted to make a car comparison, it would be like buying a car you expect to last you x years and upon purchasing, a smog that destroys cars starts to develop and your new car doesn’t last you x years. What would you do? Take it back?

Tuition is tuition. Just because the world changed and you were forced to adjust your learning doesn’t mean you are getting your tuition back.

So because the option is no longer available, the seller gets to keep the money? Sure, that makes sense.

 

[Bird Friend]

As a retiree (40 years) of a major Fortune corporation, I continue to be amazed at the impracticality of useless majors that continue to be offered at many colleges and universities. Many advisors have no clue relative to the actual (make that non-existent) market value of a marginal field of study. Realistically, considering the cost of a college education, prospective students should have a handle on job opportunities for their chosen major. Obvious choices offering payback would include engineering, accounting, finance, actuarial science, insurance, marketing, industrial technology, physical and occupational therapy, nursing, medical technology, information technology, and education. Useless choices, IMO only, would be subjects such as art, gender studies, the various sub-groups of ethnic studies, anthropology, philosophy, etc. Truthfully, few major corporations will seriously consider a major that offers little value or relevance to the traditional functional areas of the employer. Removal of majors that result in barista positions at Starbucks should be a goal of every prudent, cost minded college.

JFC, seriously? So you want to get rid of the very studies that deal with our humanity?

Forget it. I'm not going to argue with you on this, but just know that I think this line of thinking is exactly why we're in the situation we're currently in.

 

[gobirds85]

Good lawyers for the universities will find a way to change the 'tuition refund' to 'tuition credit' if it goes class action. Nobody really gets anything of tangible value. From my own experience dealing with arbitration cases, a good lawyer can turn this against the plaintiffs very easily. Did the student receive instruction for the course content promised by the syllabus and course description? If yes, then what's the basis for the lawsuit? "Experience" is an esoteric and subjective concept. Plus the course descriptions and syllabi rarely include a promised "experience". In their basic mission, universities provide education. "Experiences" are not their mission, though they can be useful for marketing purposes.

That said, good plaintiff lawyers will sift through every course description and syllabus, marketing material, handbooks, by laws, etc. to find anything that strongly implies an experience that was lost with lock-downs.

In the long run, the only ones who'll benefit from a class action lawsuit are the attorneys and a small group plaintiffs who started the process. And programs through companies like Coursera will benefit significantly when universities are forced to reduce faculty due to lack of funding. And remember, if you join the class action suit, you're bound by their outcome with no recourse for personal grievances. Sometimes that fine, sometimes not.

The university concept has been under fire for several years, with many experts calling for fundamental changes in higher education. The current crisis will drive some changes. Like many industries higher ed will end up changed in some fundamental ways. The value of higher ed degrees has already been slipping, especially in non-vocational subjects (i.e. liberal arts). Smaller universities like IWU are already shifting toward a more vocational curriculum (IWU is dropping their college of music and increasing business-oriented presence).

Community colleges will probably gain in prominence in the short term. Four year schools would be smart to work with CCs to share facilities, curricula, and faculty. As a country, if we value higher ed as we say we do, then CC should be free. Move as much teaching to online as is feasible and appropriate, remembering that some course work cannot be done online (such as how many people want to have a nurse who learned how to give shots thru an online course with no hands on training? Or want to fly in a plane where the welders who repair planes have only been taught online with no hands on experience?)

It's high time for admin/exec salaries to be questioned in detail, but that's my opinion for all industries. It's high time for all industries to consider their contingency plans AND FUNDING for mega crises, such as pandemics. All organizations should have had plans in place to mitigate the financial and emotional impact of a natural, national disaster. For those who say "but nobody could have expected", bullshit. Epidemic and pandemic specialists have been warning of an impending crisis for over two decades. Hell, the Ebola and H1N1 scares should have sent organizations scrambling to make plans.

Nope. We failed. We failed big time. Our focus on short term profit and stock performance left us exposed. And is still driving decisions.

Time to put on your mask, zip up your hazmat suit, and get back to work.

Well said. Thanks and I do agree with you regarding the direction of higher education. Universities need to get students ready for the real world.

 

[TBS_20]

Good lawyers for the universities will find a way to change the 'tuition refund' to 'tuition credit' if it goes class action. Nobody really gets anything of tangible value. From my own experience dealing with arbitration cases, a good lawyer can turn this against the plaintiffs very easily. Did the student receive instruction for the course content promised by the syllabus and course description? If yes, then what's the basis for the lawsuit? "Experience" is an esoteric and subjective concept. Plus the course descriptions and syllabi rarely include a promised "experience". In their basic mission, universities provide education. "Experiences" are not their mission, though they can be useful for marketing purposes.

That said, good plaintiff lawyers will sift through every course description and syllabus, marketing material, handbooks, by laws, etc. to find anything that strongly implies an experience that was lost with lock-downs.

In the long run, the only ones who'll benefit from a class action lawsuit are the attorneys and a small group plaintiffs who started the process. And programs through companies like Coursera will benefit significantly when universities are forced to reduce faculty due to lack of funding. And remember, if you join the class action suit, you're bound by their outcome with no recourse for personal grievances. Sometimes that fine, sometimes not.

The university concept has been under fire for several years, with many experts calling for fundamental changes in higher education. The current crisis will drive some changes. Like many industries higher ed will end up changed in some fundamental ways. The value of higher ed degrees has already been slipping, especially in non-vocational subjects (i.e. liberal arts). Smaller universities like IWU are already shifting toward a more vocational curriculum (IWU is dropping their college of music and increasing business-oriented presence).

Community colleges will probably gain in prominence in the short term. Four year schools would be smart to work with CCs to share facilities, curricula, and faculty. As a country, if we value higher ed as we say we do, then CC should be free. Move as much teaching to online as is feasible and appropriate, remembering that some course work cannot be done online (such as how many people want to have a nurse who learned how to give shots thru an online course with no hands on training? Or want to fly in a plane where the welders who repair planes have only been taught online with no hands on experience?)

It's high time for admin/exec salaries to be questioned in detail, but that's my opinion for all industries. It's high time for all industries to consider their contingency plans AND FUNDING for mega crises, such as pandemics. All organizations should have had plans in place to mitigate the financial and emotional impact of a natural, national disaster. For those who say "but nobody could have expected", bullshit. Epidemic and pandemic specialists have been warning of an impending crisis for over two decades. Hell, the Ebola and H1N1 scares should have sent organizations scrambling to make plans.

Nope. We failed. We failed big time. Our focus on short term profit and stock performance left us exposed. And is still driving decisions.

Time to put on your mask, zip up your hazmat suit, and get back to work.

I agree that education will change. I think in the future you will just see 1-2 year vocational degrees. You won't see many 4 year colleges outside maybe Ivy and the other very best. No point. The first two years have been pointless for YEARS. If they need those classes they could be done in high school. High school would have to be accelerated which it needs to be anyway because we are slipping behind other countries. You are going to see a lot more 2 year off campus colleges. A lot more for profit schools. And, the end of college sports as we know it. Basketball will go to developmental leagues and football will end at the college level. That's where I see it going, at least.

 

[TIMMY]

Good lawyers for the universities will find a way to change the 'tuition refund' to 'tuition credit' if it goes class action. Nobody really gets anything of tangible value. From my own experience dealing with arbitration cases, a good lawyer can turn this against the plaintiffs very easily. Did the student receive instruction for the course content promised by the syllabus and course description? If yes, then what's the basis for the lawsuit? "Experience" is an esoteric and subjective concept. Plus the course descriptions and syllabi rarely include a promised "experience". In their basic mission, universities provide education. "Experiences" are not their mission, though they can be useful for marketing purposes.

That said, good plaintiff lawyers will sift through every course description and syllabus, marketing material, handbooks, by laws, etc. to find anything that strongly implies an experience that was lost with lock-downs.

In the long run, the only ones who'll benefit from a class action lawsuit are the attorneys and a small group plaintiffs who started the process. And programs through companies like Coursera will benefit significantly when universities are forced to reduce faculty due to lack of funding. And remember, if you join the class action suit, you're bound by their outcome with no recourse for personal grievances. Sometimes that fine, sometimes not.

The university concept has been under fire for several years, with many experts calling for fundamental changes in higher education. The current crisis will drive some changes. Like many industries higher ed will end up changed in some fundamental ways. The value of higher ed degrees has already been slipping, especially in non-vocational subjects (i.e. liberal arts). Smaller universities like IWU are already shifting toward a more vocational curriculum (IWU is dropping their college of music and increasing business-oriented presence).

Community colleges will probably gain in prominence in the short term. Four year schools would be smart to work with CCs to share facilities, curricula, and faculty. As a country, if we value higher ed as we say we do, then CC should be free. Move as much teaching to online as is feasible and appropriate, remembering that some course work cannot be done online (such as how many people want to have a nurse who learned how to give shots thru an online course with no hands on training? Or want to fly in a plane where the welders who repair planes have only been taught online with no hands on experience?)

It's high time for admin/exec salaries to be questioned in detail, but that's my opinion for all industries. It's high time for all industries to consider their contingency plans AND FUNDING for mega crises, such as pandemics. All organizations should have had plans in place to mitigate the financial and emotional impact of a natural, national disaster. For those who say "but nobody could have expected", bullshit. Epidemic and pandemic specialists have been warning of an impending crisis for over two decades. Hell, the Ebola and H1N1 scares should have sent organizations scrambling to make plans.

Nope. We failed. We failed big time. Our focus on short term profit and stock performance left us exposed. And is still driving decisions.

Time to put on your mask, zip up your hazmat suit, and get back to work.

I agree that education will change. I think in the future you will just see 1-2 year vocational degrees. You won't see many 4 year colleges outside maybe Ivy and the other very best. No point. The first two years have been pointless for YEARS. If they need those classes they could be done in high school. High school would have to be accelerated which it needs to be anyway because we are slipping behind other countries. You are going to see a lot more 2 year off campus colleges. A lot more for profit schools. And, the end of college sports as we know it. Basketball will go to developmental leagues and football will end at the college level. That's where I see it going, at least.

My daughter teaches at a small high school in Indiana. She teaches all dual credit classes for college credit in conjunction with their Jr. College System. (Ivy Tech). Unlike AP there is no test. If they get a B or above they get transferable credit at any Indiana University. 40 of their 120 graduates will start college as sophomores.

They also have a welding program that will graduate 20 certified welders this year, an auto mechanics certification and a CNC certification program.

 

[Trey_Guidry4three]

I could talk for hours about this. If anyone wants to know more and get free legal advice I could setup call from legal counsel. Short summary: it's very tricky because of many universities and students abilities to pivot with technology. But at the same time universities have stipulations on contracts that are essentially a contract of adhesion with students- IE must read fine print of cancellation clauses. It's not fair and I think due to the press this is getting and the very liberal society we have created, the students will prevail regardless of a contract they might have signed with a college about tuition or room and board payments.

 

[TBS_20]

Good lawyers for the universities will find a way to change the 'tuition refund' to 'tuition credit' if it goes class action. Nobody really gets anything of tangible value. From my own experience dealing with arbitration cases, a good lawyer can turn this against the plaintiffs very easily. Did the student receive instruction for the course content promised by the syllabus and course description? If yes, then what's the basis for the lawsuit? "Experience" is an esoteric and subjective concept. Plus the course descriptions and syllabi rarely include a promised "experience". In their basic mission, universities provide education. "Experiences" are not their mission, though they can be useful for marketing purposes.

That said, good plaintiff lawyers will sift through every course description and syllabus, marketing material, handbooks, by laws, etc. to find anything that strongly implies an experience that was lost with lock-downs.

In the long run, the only ones who'll benefit from a class action lawsuit are the attorneys and a small group plaintiffs who started the process. And programs through companies like Coursera will benefit significantly when universities are forced to reduce faculty due to lack of funding. And remember, if you join the class action suit, you're bound by their outcome with no recourse for personal grievances. Sometimes that fine, sometimes not.

The university concept has been under fire for several years, with many experts calling for fundamental changes in higher education. The current crisis will drive some changes. Like many industries higher ed will end up changed in some fundamental ways. The value of higher ed degrees has already been slipping, especially in non-vocational subjects (i.e. liberal arts). Smaller universities like IWU are already shifting toward a more vocational curriculum (IWU is dropping their college of music and increasing business-oriented presence).

Community colleges will probably gain in prominence in the short term. Four year schools would be smart to work with CCs to share facilities, curricula, and faculty. As a country, if we value higher ed as we say we do, then CC should be free. Move as much teaching to online as is feasible and appropriate, remembering that some course work cannot be done online (such as how many people want to have a nurse who learned how to give shots thru an online course with no hands on training? Or want to fly in a plane where the welders who repair planes have only been taught online with no hands on experience?)

It's high time for admin/exec salaries to be questioned in detail, but that's my opinion for all industries. It's high time for all industries to consider their contingency plans AND FUNDING for mega crises, such as pandemics. All organizations should have had plans in place to mitigate the financial and emotional impact of a natural, national disaster. For those who say "but nobody could have expected", bullshit. Epidemic and pandemic specialists have been warning of an impending crisis for over two decades. Hell, the Ebola and H1N1 scares should have sent organizations scrambling to make plans.

Nope. We failed. We failed big time. Our focus on short term profit and stock performance left us exposed. And is still driving decisions.

Time to put on your mask, zip up your hazmat suit, and get back to work.

I agree that education will change. I think in the future you will just see 1-2 year vocational degrees. You won't see many 4 year colleges outside maybe Ivy and the other very best. No point. The first two years have been pointless for YEARS. If they need those classes they could be done in high school. High school would have to be accelerated which it needs to be anyway because we are slipping behind other countries. You are going to see a lot more 2 year off campus colleges. A lot more for profit schools. And, the end of college sports as we know it. Basketball will go to developmental leagues and football will end at the college level. That's where I see it going, at least.

My daughter teaches at a small high school in Indiana. She teaches all dual credit classes for college credit in conjunction with their Jr. College System. (Ivy Tech). Unlike AP there is no test. If they get a B or above they get transferable credit at any Indiana University. 40 of their 120 graduates will start college as sophomores.

They also have a welding program that will graduate 20 certified welders this year, an auto mechanics certification and a CNC certification program.

A lot of kids will bypass college all together if high schools jump in with other programs. I know of a high school by Chicago that let's you become a nurse upon high school graduation. LPN not RN but still. That's a $22 per hour job right out of high school.

 

[TIMMY]

I agree that education will change. I think in the future you will just see 1-2 year vocational degrees. You won't see many 4 year colleges outside maybe Ivy and the other very best. No point. The first two years have been pointless for YEARS. If they need those classes they could be done in high school. High school would have to be accelerated which it needs to be anyway because we are slipping behind other countries. You are going to see a lot more 2 year off campus colleges. A lot more for profit schools. And, the end of college sports as we know it. Basketball will go to developmental leagues and football will end at the college level. That's where I see it going, at least.

My daughter teaches at a small high school in Indiana. She teaches all dual credit classes for college credit in conjunction with their Jr. College System. (Ivy Tech). Unlike AP there is no test. If they get a B or above they get transferable credit at any Indiana University. 40 of their 120 graduates will start college as sophomores.

They also have a welding program that will graduate 20 certified welders this year, an auto mechanics certification and a CNC certification program.

A lot of kids will bypass college all together if high schools jump in with other programs. I know of a high school by Chicago that let's you become a nurse upon high school graduation. LPN not RN but still. That's a $22 per hour job right out of high school.

That sounds like a great program. My son is a union iron worker. He's over $30 per hour. There is such a shortage up here that he's on a job building a plant for Green Bay Packaging. They're working 10 hour days 6 days a week. When he finishes up he'll come home, take a month off buy a foreclosure, redo it and rent it out. It'll be his 4th summer doing that. The kids smart as hell but hates sitting at a desk or in a classroom. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[MadBird]

Interesting discussion here, covering a lot of ground, a "higher level" discussion than we usually have around here! No cut to any or us, just the way it is. It may be hard for me to cover all the thoughts I have here, and some don't "connect" necessarily, but I'll give it a shot.

First, the topic that started it all -- I would hate to see anyone sue universities (or businesses or anything else) because of the fall out from the world-wide plague that has befallen us all. Come on, would did you want them to do, say, well, there's a pandemic out there but we're staying open for everyone who wants the campus experience?

Speaking of which, I fully support the "campus experience" and would hate to see "higher education" cede to the plague of the blue screens and the ADHD, etc. 4 year higher ed is not for everyone and I would hate see "higher ed" become "lower ed" just to attract people who can't cut it or don't want it. That's not exactly what I mean here, can't really express my thoughts, but you get the point. Some people just aren't cut out for what is being offered at liberal arts colleges and universities. That's okay, there are many options out there.

All institutions need to evolve, at some point, continually, whatever, higher education is no different. But we have tech schools, junior colleges, whatever you call them, many or most of them do great work and should continue to do great work and prepare kids for the next step, whether is directly to employment or a move on to finishing a 4-year degree.

As for "evolving", the target population for universities is dropping, will continue to drop, so smaller enrollments aren't necessarily a statement of failure, but just a natural trend. And maybe the "value" of a college degree is dropping, that's fine. Smaller enrollments could be just fine, provide for a better learning environment, etc.

Woodland Warrior ranted about "useless" majors and I couldn't disagree with him more. Who's to say what is a "useless" major? Who's to say we want to leave it to Fortune 500 companies to decide what is and isn't a "useless major? Let's use archeology as an example - so who would staff museums? Almost all major construction projects (highways, buildings, etc.) require as part of their environmental impact statement a review of the impact on potential historical features - who would complete those? Say I want to be an artist - don't I get to go to a university and study and learn? Music? Drama? Who puts on all those plays and broadway shows and TV shows and movies??? In Madison we have Epic Systems, an international leader in medical records systems. They hire people from all majors, because they are looking for "thinkers", problem solvers, etc. and they recognize those kinds of people come from all kinds of backgrounds and majors.

We have to RESIST, not embrace, the almighty dollar. Who's going to teach our kids if we don't have people willing to take relatively lower paying jobs in education? There's such a thing as job satisfaction that comes from other things than the take home pay. It's true, altho I know some of you and many out there don't believe it.

And the almighty dollar - if football or basketball revenues decrease, why shouldn't the money come out of their budgets, rather than volleyball or track or softball or what have you? Ungodly amounts are spent on big-time sports, and maybe it's time to cut them loose, especially from the university experience? I don't mean no more football or basketball, but maybe it's time for the highest paid state employee to not the head football coach or head basketball coach.

Okay, Mrs. MadBird is asking why I'm writing so much, so will throw in the towel. gobirds85, don't sue.

 

[TBS_20]

We're not saying learning needs to change we just see it trending that way. It's obvious 4 year on campus colleges will drastically change

 

[ISU FAN 1]

I heard up to 20% of colleges will disappear and/or merge with another as a result of the pandemic.

I feel for athletes that earned a benefit (room & board) that they are not receiving in full. Yet, are expected to continue holding up their part of the bargain with year round workouts.

 

[gobirds85]

Interesting discussion here, covering a lot of ground, a "higher level" discussion than we usually have around here! No cut to any or us, just the way it is. It may be hard for me to cover all the thoughts I have here, and some don't "connect" necessarily, but I'll give it a shot.

First, the topic that started it all -- I would hate to see anyone sue universities (or businesses or anything else) because of the fall out from the world-wide plague that has befallen us all. Come on, would did you want them to do, say, well, there's a pandemic out there but we're staying open for everyone who wants the campus experience?

Speaking of which, I fully support the "campus experience" and would hate to see "higher education" cede to the plague of the blue screens and the ADHD, etc. 4 year higher ed is not for everyone and I would hate see "higher ed" become "lower ed" just to attract people who can't cut it or don't want it. That's not exactly what I mean here, can't really express my thoughts, but you get the point. Some people just aren't cut out for what is being offered at liberal arts colleges and universities. That's okay, there are many options out there.

All institutions need to evolve, at some point, continually, whatever, higher education is no different. But we have tech schools, junior colleges, whatever you call them, many or most of them do great work and should continue to do great work and prepare kids for the next step, whether is directly to employment or a move on to finishing a 4-year degree.

As for "evolving", the target population for universities is dropping, will continue to drop, so smaller enrollments aren't necessarily a statement of failure, but just a natural trend. And maybe the "value" of a college degree is dropping, that's fine. Smaller enrollments could be just fine, provide for a better learning environment, etc.

Woodland Warrior ranted about "useless" majors and I couldn't disagree with him more. Who's to say what is a "useless" major? Who's to say we want to leave it to Fortune 500 companies to decide what is and isn't a "useless major? Let's use archeology as an example - so who would staff museums? Almost all major construction projects (highways, buildings, etc.) require as part of their environmental impact statement a review of the impact on potential historical features - who would complete those? Say I want to be an artist - don't I get to go to a university and study and learn? Music? Drama? Who puts on all those plays and broadway shows and TV shows and movies??? In Madison we have Epic Systems, an international leader in medical records systems. They hire people from all majors, because they are looking for "thinkers", problem solvers, etc. and they recognize those kinds of people come from all kinds of backgrounds and majors.

We have to RESIST, not embrace, the almighty dollar. Who's going to teach our kids if we don't have people willing to take relatively lower paying jobs in education? There's such a thing as job satisfaction that comes from other things than the take home pay. It's true, altho I know some of you and many out there don't believe it.

And the almighty dollar - if football or basketball revenues decrease, why shouldn't the money come out of their budgets, rather than volleyball or track or softball or what have you? Ungodly amounts are spent on big-time sports, and maybe it's time to cut them loose, especially from the university experience? I don't mean no more football or basketball, but maybe it's time for the highest paid state employee to not the head football coach or head basketball coach.

Okay, Mrs. MadBird is asking why I'm writing so much, so will throw in the towel. gobirds85, don't sue.

I do not want to be involved in a class action lawsuit. This is by far and away a last resort option. If the university wants to make an effort to provide some sort of discount for students next year, then I am for that, but for them to say that since 60% of the semester was finished so we think that is enough, is utter bullshit.

Google how many universities are going to be spending $$$ on attorneys as opposed to helping out their customers. I've have owned businesses for 23 years now and the one thing I have learned is that pissing off customers is never a good idea.