OT: Former Players

[fourthandshort]

New tight ends coach at U of Minnesota Eric Koehler - QB coach at ISU in 2013 (one year only). From his bio:



I know fourthandshort particularly values the Winkler era! One of those Spack HS QB projects.

 

[fourthandshort]

New tight ends coach at U of Minnesota Eric Koehler - QB coach at ISU in 2013 (one year only). From his bio:



I know fourthandshort particularly values the Winkler era! One of those Spack HS QB projects.

More serious note .. he struck me as having Rex Grossman syndrome ... liked his throwing, but not strong or big in the pocket. He was another one that got off to ok start, but faded in 2013 .. o
But we went with Co-OCs and it was not good at all. Even Coprich sucked that year. So chicken or egg debate on whether Winkler was or wasn't the guy. I had heard he actually put up a nice battle with Robeson in summer. But eventually Robersons dual threat and deep ball made for clear decision.

Blake Winkler Grade ... C, but hard to pin all the blame on him from 2013 anemic offense ...because clearly coaches need to accept blame too.

 

[MadBird]

More serious note .. he struck me as having Rex Grossman syndrome ... liked his throwing, but not strong or big in the pocket. He was another one that got off to ok start, but faded in 2013 .. o
But we went with Co-OCs and it was not good at all. Even Coprich sucked that year. So chicken or egg debate on whether Winkler was or wasn't the guy. I had heard he actually put up a nice battle with Robeson in summer. But eventually Robersons dual threat and deep ball made for clear decision.

Blake Winkler Grade ... C, but hard to pin all the blame on him from 2013 anemic offense ...because clearly coaches need to accept blame too.

Well, times have changed too. Winkler, these days, might have transferred and showed more. Those days, way back then, he graduated and moved on. Who knows how good he might have been. Funny tho, as we talk about it, maybe there's some "ying and yang" with Spack about recruiting and developing the HS QB - he thinks he has one, with Winkler, and then Kolbe, but it doesn't go "all the way". So, he gets cold feet about bringing in the HS QB. Well, he didn't I guess, he brought in Bryce Jefferson from HS and that didn't go anywhere.

 

[fourthandshort]

Well, times have changed too. Winkler, these days, might have transferred and showed more. Those days, way back then, he graduated and moved on. Who knows how good he might have been. Funny tho, as we talk about it, maybe there's some "ying and yang" with Spack about recruiting and developing the HS QB - he thinks he has one, with Winkler, and then Kolbe, but it doesn't go "all the way". So, he gets cold feet about bringing in the HS QB. Well, he didn't I guess, he brought in Bryce Jefferson from HS and that didn't go anywhere.

Good point that Winkler could have probably transferred and found a good fit, but his pocket presense and mobility really limited him .. so he would have probably had to go to a much weaker conference or drop down.

Jefferson was the exact opposite .. he was so good in the pocket in every way IMO, except for throwing under any kind of pressure. I had hoped/thought he had more ceiling and might have settled down better over time.

Some of this is probably not knowing how to recruit the right guy, but some is coaching/developing for sure. As many of you know about me, I think it is more of the latter. Cases in point ... Kolbe, Davis, and then Jeffersen and Winkler to lesser extent. Spack tends to gush about HS QB recruits ... the only one he was close to right about was Kolbe. I still believe Spack/Dickens ruined any chance he had of being a stud in the MVFC.

Now whether this recent success was more due to OC Peterson or QB Annexstad, I still don't know .. but we're about to find out this fall. Regardless, I'm convinced this is how we landed K State QB Jake Rubley - and we now have a "reputation" again to attract QBs (HS or portal) - let's not squander this. Though I do remain convinced, OC Peterson is still going to find our TE a lot in 2024 ... even losing Annexstad and losing all of our TE production after 22 and again after 23 .. we saw Rittenhouse find Grandy for 10 catches the last 2 games, just under his season avg of 5.7 catches/gm.

Anyway, you guys know Ive belabored this Spack/QB thing for a long time .. but this is the most optimistic Ive been since 2016 Kolbe Year 1.

 

[Total Red]

Now whether this recent success was more due to OC Peterson or QB Annexstad, I still don't know .. but we're about to find out this fall.

The FB board loves to do this. Posters take a small sample and then try to make a broad sweeping statement. If two different QBs do well then, the OC gets the credit because he's the common denominator. Isn't it possible that we recruit back-to-back transfers, and both are quality QB's, so they each deserve credit for their own success?
Don't just look at the last two seasons, step back at look at the larger picture. Petersen has been coaching a long time. When he has had good QB's and surrounding players he's done well and when he hasn't had them, he doesn't really light it up. He's a good OC but he needs players to make it happen like every other coach.

Though I do remain convinced, OC Peterson is still going to find our TE a lot in 2024 ... even losing Annexstad and losing all of our TE production after 22 and again after 23 .. we saw Rittenhouse find Grandy for 10 catches the last 2 games, just under his season avg of 5.7 catches/gm.

Here's where we can put my thesis to the test. Receptions by the TE position will noticeably decrease in 2024. OC Petersen has been given credit for rediscovering the TE position and he has done a good job of making sure the TE is an important component of the offense. But the TE's themselves have been the larger piece of the puzzle. We were fortunate to have two good TE's in 2022 in Taula and Deming. I thought TE production might go down in '23, but to my surprise we recruited a TE that was even better, and TE productivity went up, not down. Could I be sleeping on the '24 crop of TE's (Charles, Ziebarth, Presson etc)? Possibly. Grandy grabbed so many balls in '23 we didn't get a good look at what the other TE's could do. But players like Grandy don't come along every year so I'm tempering my expectations for the TE position. It has nothing to do with the OC. The talent level at TE will go down so the TE receptions will go down.

Denver Johnson said it and I keep repeating it. "It's not about X's and O's, it's about Jimmies and Joes."
I'll agree that that is an overstatement because good coaches can win games, but it is more true than false. Coaches get too much credit and too much blame and fans read too much into small trends. If a coach has a great RB and a mediocre QB two seasons in a row, fans will say he's a run 1st coach if he runs the ball most of the time. Stop it. Wait until he has a really good QB. If he continues to run the ball, then you can label him a "grind it out the ground coach" but don't slap labels on coaches that simply respond to the talent at their disposal at that time.

 

[fourthandshort]

The FB board loves to do this. Posters take a small sample and then try to make a broad sweeping statement. If two different QBs do well then, the OC gets the credit because he's the common denominator. Isn't it possible that we recruit back-to-back transfers, and both are quality QB's, so they each deserve credit for their own success?
Don't just look at the last two seasons, step back at look at the larger picture. Petersen has been coaching a long time. When he has had good QB's and surrounding players he's done well and when he hasn't had them, he doesn't really light it up. He's a good OC but he needs players to make it happen like every other coach.


Here's where we can put my thesis to the test. Receptions by the TE position will noticeably decrease in 2024. OC Petersen has been given credit for rediscovering the TE position and he has done a good job of making sure the TE is an important component of the offense. But the TE's themselves have been the larger piece of the puzzle. We were fortunate to have two good TE's in 2022 in Taula and Deming. I thought TE production might go down in '23, but to my surprise we recruited a TE that was even better, and TE productivity went up, not down. Could I be sleeping on the '24 crop of TE's (Charles, Ziebarth, Presson etc)? Possibly. Grandy grabbed so many balls in '23 we didn't get a good look at what the other TE's could do. But players like Grandy don't come along every year so I'm tempering my expectations for the TE position. It has nothing to do with the OC. The talent level at TE will go down so the TE receptions will go down.

Denver Johnson said it and I keep repeating it. "It's not about X's and O's, it's about Jimmies and Joes."
I'll agree that that is an overstatement because good coaches can win games, but it is more true than false. Coaches get too much credit and too much blame and fans read too much into small trends. If a coach has a great RB and a mediocre QB two seasons in a row, fans will say he's a run 1st coach if he runs the ball most of the time. Stop it. Wait until he has a really good QB. If he continues to run the ball, then you can label him a "grind it out the ground coach" but don't slap labels on coaches that simply respond to the talent at their disposal at that time.

Fair points for more part. But I guess my main point is looking at the broader picture of Spack's tenure. What has or hasnt worked in all phases, but especially in the passing game and why .. which is what has kept us from consistently making playoffs and runs. There's no disputing, we lead with defense and then run game. But fall short in pass game most seasons .. Spack is the common denominator .. we've had many OCs, 2 different times we had Co-OCs. For me, sometimes it's the Jimmies and Joes, and sometimes its the coaches ... system/culture, recruiting/developing, and then game planning/play calling. My broader picture is Spack and our.his consistent weakness at QB position. And then it comes down whether we find an OC who can deal with Spack.

So for me, that is the main question and what I grapple with .. while not knowing the ins/outs of the game as well as you. I more know body types and stat analysis. And then when I like or don't like what I see competitively, while scouring stats to see how we do compared to others in ll phases.

Anyway, fair points, but Spack is the common denominator ... and he has some clear strengths and weakness when looking at his body of work since 2009. That is what I look at and opine based on. Now whether OC Peterson is a good fit for now, because of the Jimmies & Joes so far, I have said, I'm still not sure.

 

[Total Red]

Fair points for most part.

bah, took the wind out of my sails. I was looking forward to 3 pages of heated back and forth.

 

[ISUBU]

With transferring becoming so easy, I predict that we'll be seeing transfer QBs almost constantly. Except for perhaps the kickers, it's the position that every team requires depth, but most teams plan to only play one player for the season. Division 1 players will pay their dues for a couple seasons, but then they want to play. There will be constant shuffling of QBs among the 250 or so FBS and FCS programs, and other levels somewhat, as players seek opportunities to get on the field.

Some players will arrive as freshmen and will develop at a pace that suits both that player and the program. So some will break through and advance to the starter role. Sometimes the circumstances make that happen.

 

[fourthandshort]

bah, took the wind out of my sails. I was looking forward to 3 pages of heated back and forth.

 

[StLRedbird]

The FB board loves to do this. Posters take a small sample and then try to make a broad sweeping statement. If two different QBs do well then, the OC gets the credit because he's the common denominator. Isn't it possible that we recruit back-to-back transfers, and both are quality QB's, so they each deserve credit for their own success?
Don't just look at the last two seasons, step back at look at the larger picture. Petersen has been coaching a long time. When he has had good QB's and surrounding players he's done well and when he hasn't had them, he doesn't really light it up. He's a good OC but he needs players to make it happen like every other coach.


Here's where we can put my thesis to the test. Receptions by the TE position will noticeably decrease in 2024. OC Petersen has been given credit for rediscovering the TE position and he has done a good job of making sure the TE is an important component of the offense. But the TE's themselves have been the larger piece of the puzzle. We were fortunate to have two good TE's in 2022 in Taula and Deming. I thought TE production might go down in '23, but to my surprise we recruited a TE that was even better, and TE productivity went up, not down. Could I be sleeping on the '24 crop of TE's (Charles, Ziebarth, Presson etc)? Possibly. Grandy grabbed so many balls in '23 we didn't get a good look at what the other TE's could do. But players like Grandy don't come along every year so I'm tempering my expectations for the TE position. It has nothing to do with the OC. The talent level at TE will go down so the TE receptions will go down.

Denver Johnson said it and I keep repeating it. "It's not about X's and O's, it's about Jimmies and Joes."
I'll agree that that is an overstatement because good coaches can win games, but it is more true than false. Coaches get too much credit and too much blame and fans read too much into small trends. If a coach has a great RB and a mediocre QB two seasons in a row, fans will say he's a run 1st coach if he runs the ball most of the time. Stop it. Wait until he has a really good QB. If he continues to run the ball, then you can label him a "grind it out the ground coach" but don't slap labels on coaches that simply respond to the talent at their disposal at that time.

I always interpreted Johnson's comment to mean you could draw up the best play in the world, but you have to have players that can execute it. Regardless of how you interpret it, I have to say this. Football is the sport I have the hardest time separating poor execution from poor coaching/planning. There's too much going on and I have to admit after 20 yrs of conscious effort to improve it, I still have a five year old's resistance to bright shiny objects on a football field.

So I read this board for the informed opinions of people that understand the game better than I do. TR, your comments about focusing on a particular position group or player have been emulated, just not the quality of the observations.

 

[fourthandshort]

The FB board loves to do this. Posters take a small sample and then try to make a broad sweeping statement. If two different QBs do well then, the OC gets the credit because he's the common denominator. Isn't it possible that we recruit back-to-back transfers, and both are quality QB's, so they each deserve credit for their own success?
Don't just look at the last two seasons, step back at look at the larger picture. Petersen has been coaching a long time. When he has had good QB's and surrounding players he's done well and when he hasn't had them, he doesn't really light it up. He's a good OC but he needs players to make it happen like every other coach.

Here's where we can put my thesis to the test. Receptions by the TE position will noticeably decrease in 2024. OC Petersen has been given credit for rediscovering the TE position and he has done a good job of making sure the TE is an important component of the offense. But the TE's themselves have been the larger piece of the puzzle. We were fortunate to have two good TE's in 2022 in Taula and Deming. I thought TE production might go down in '23, but to my surprise we recruited a TE that was even better, and TE productivity went up, not down. Could I be sleeping on the '24 crop of TE's (Charles, Ziebarth, Presson etc)? Possibly. Grandy grabbed so many balls in '23 we didn't get a good look at what the other TE's could do. But players like Grandy don't come along every year so I'm tempering my expectations for the TE position. It has nothing to do with the OC. The talent level at TE will go down so the TE receptions will go down.

Denver Johnson said it and I keep repeating it. "It's not about X's and O's, it's about Jimmies and Joes."
I'll agree that that is an overstatement because good coaches can win games, but it is more true than false. Coaches get too much credit and too much blame and fans read too much into small trends. If a coach has a great RB and a mediocre QB two seasons in a row, fans will say he's a run 1st coach if he runs the ball most of the time. Stop it. Wait until he has a really good QB. If he continues to run the ball, then you can label him a "grind it out the ground coach" but don't slap labels on coaches that simply respond to the talent at their disposal at that time.

ok, screw "serenity now" ... I think you may be hinting at a little wager there. So lets come up with a production number to bet the over/under on. But we'll need a 3rd party to whom we can each send a prediction for total catches in regular season by entire TE group. Then we split the difference, and use that as over/under.

Just need to come up with what to wager ... any ideas ??

As for the intermediary, I propose we use quinn as our the intermediary. So we would each send offline message to Quinn with our prediction.

Quinn ... you willing to get into the middle of our little "skirmish" .. the 2024 offense and title hopes are hanging in the balance, so no pressure !!

 

[Total Red]

ok, screw "serenity now" ... I think you may be hinting at a little wager there. So lets come up with a production number to bet the over/under on. But we'll need a 3rd party to whom we can each send a prediction for total catches in regular season by entire TE group. Then we split the difference, and use that as over/under.

Just need to come up with what to wager ... any ideas ??

As for the intermediary, I propose we use quinn as our the intermediary. So we would each send offline message to Quinn with our prediction.

Quinn ... you willing to get into the middle of our little "skirmish" .. the 2024 offense and title hopes are hanging in the balance, so no pressure !!

I'm too cowardly for a bet but both of our posts are there to be seen. Bragging rights will have to do. We're the only ones that care.

 

[fourthandshort]

I'm too cowardly for a bet but both of our posts are there to be seen. Bragging rights will have to do. We're the only ones that care.

ok, but you have to promise not to employ The Price is Right strategy and pick 1 below me in this over/under bet.

So my bet presumes Peterson is still our OC and we have either Rittenhouse or Rubley healthy for at least 10 of 12 games. How's that for hedging my bet .. for nothing wagered.

So its a 12 game season .. Im thinking at least 3 catches per game would be 36, so going with about 40 catches, which is still way more than we ever had under Beathard. We could do a range so 38 to 43 catches by TE group if you like.

What say ye ???

 

[Birgs]

ok, but you have to promise not to employ The Price is Right strategy and pick 1 below me in this over/under bet.

So my bet presumes Peterson is still our OC and we have either Rittenhouse or Rubley healthy for at least 10 of 12 games. How's that for hedging my bet .. for nothing wagered.

So its a 12 game season .. Im thinking at least 3 catches per game would be 36, so going with about 40 catches, which is still way more than we ever had under Beathard. We could do a range so 38 to 43 catches by TE group if you like.

What say ye ???

Just as a VERY enthusiastic bystander in this cool-ass challenge, I like your logic (and as a former TE/H-Back-ish goof would love those touches & more)... BUT... I'm leaning under just on gut. Not knowing anything concrete about our QB styles, that's where I'm pointing. Can;t wait for more banter on this. Love this pocket of RBF chalk geeks to pieces!

 

[Total Red]

ok, but you have to promise not to employ The Price is Right strategy and pick 1 below me in this over/under bet.

So my bet presumes Peterson is still our OC and we have either Rittenhouse or Rubley healthy for at least 10 of 12 games. How's that for hedging my bet .. for nothing wagered.

So its a 12 game season .. Im thinking at least 3 catches per game would be 36, so going with about 40 catches, which is still way more than we ever had under Beathard. We could do a range so 38 to 43 catches by TE group if you like.

What say ye ???

No need. I said there would be a noticeable drop in TE receptions in '24. We had 70 TE receptions in '23.
I would call a 20% or more decrease "noticeable." That would put us at 56 catches or below. You are looking at a range of 38 to 43 that is already below the measurement for a "noticeable" drop off. Our thinking has somehow converged when you went from comparing Petersen '24 to Petersen '23 and changed it to Petersen '24 vs. Beathard era. There is nothing left to bet on.

 

[fourthandshort]

No need. I said there would be a noticeable drop in TE receptions in '24. We had 70 TE receptions in '23.
I would call a 20% or more decrease "noticeable." That would put us at 56 catches or below. You are looking at a range of 38 to 43 that is already below the measurement for a "noticeable" drop off. Our thinking has somehow converged when you went from comparing Petersen '24 to Petersen '23 and changed it to Petersen '24 vs. Beathard era. There is nothing left to bet on.

Shoot ... we had 70 this year ? Normally I'm better at doing my homework first. Was thinking Grandy was 50+, slightly better than 2022 roughly.

In any case, I presumed by big dropoff you meant back closer to pre-Peterson levels .. which is the guy I"m betting/hoping on. Like the usual 10 to 25 range per season under Spack pre-Peterson. So this was my thinking going with 40 catches ... granted a big dropoff from 70 like you said

So I'll bump my prediction to 48 catches in 12 games ... same as 2022, albeit 1 more game in 2024.

Btw,here's the homework I should have done already if I was going to make a fuss over this TE production thing and my hope Peterson is the X factor in this regard and our overall passing game improvement. May have missed some single catches by random TEs in a few years or so. I think it makes my point about Spack and TEs:

• 2009 we got 16 in 11 games .. 1.5/gm
• 2010 we got 9 in 11 games .. < 1/gm
• 2011 we got just 6 catches in 11 games ... 0.5/gm
• 2012 we got just 19 in 13 games in our qtr final run with Brown .. 1.5/gm
• 2013 we got 17 in 11 games .. 1.5/gm
• 2014 we got 34 in 15 games with Roberson to O'shaugnessy 29 + a/o 5 .. 2.3/gm
• 2015 we had 11 in 13 games .. <1/gm
• 2016 we had just 10 in 12 with Kolbe .. .<1/gm
• 2017 jumped to 26 (Petrovic-23) in 11 games .. 2.4/gm
• 2018 we had 21 with Davis in 11 games .. < 2/gm
• 2019 we dropped to 14 with Davis in 15 games .. < 1/gm ... granted last 5 with mostly Jeffersen
• 2021 we jumped back to 29 with Jeffersen/Waring and Taula/Deming ... 2.6/gm

so pre OC Peterson ... 212 TE catches in 145 games .. 1.46/gm across 12 seasons. This is about 16 catches per season.

• 2022 we jumped to 48 with OC Peterson, QB Annexstad to Taula/Deming .. 4.4/gm
• 2023 jumped to 70 with new D-II TE Grandy jumped again ... 6.4/gm

so post OC Peterson ... it is 118 catches in 22 games .. 5.36/gm

This is almost 4x what Spack had done before OC Peterson got here. Granted we had Annexstad for 17 of those 22 games. But we did lose 2 SR TEs after 2022 and did even better in 2023. But my main point is Spack's predispositions on offense are limiting us .. he seems to lean very heavily on TEs to be blockers.

I think your point is that some of this is on the TEs we recruit ... to be more blockers than receivers. Meaning, we didn't have pass catching TEs before. You may be right .. and can't judge Taula/Deming based on our horrible QB play pre-2022. But you can put this on Spack either way. This may be part of what he meant about "modern game" comment after game 1 ... using TEs more as pass catchers.

So we'll see if Peterson works his magic again next season with new QB and TEs, and earns even more trust from Spack. It is already paying dividends .. we got K State recruit Jake Rubely to complete with Rittenhouse all off season in our new IPF !!!!

 

[cpacmel]

 

[Total Red]

Probably the last contract for Harris.

 

[MadBird]

From the former coach department, Spence Nowinsky moves on to Memphis as Asst. DC and D line coach:

Silverfield Adds Nowinsky to Memphis Football Staff - University of Memphis Athletics

MEMPHIS, Tenn. – University of Memphis head football coach Ryan Silverfield announced the hiring of Spence Nowinsky on Tuesday as the team's assist...

gotigersgo.com

 

[cpacmel]