Homecoming - North Dakota St.

CaliRdBrd

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 17, 2017
Messages
5,616
Chose Virginia's post to reply to, but several have mentioned Jefferson continuing to start, the offense in general, Waring as the future QB, etc.

Did anyone else hear Spack's post-game comments on the radio yesterday? He was "gentle" in terms of criticizing Jefferson, was clearly not happy with the entire offense, but also singled out the lack of success passing. He answered a direct question about whether Jefferson starts next week, and said yes, but that he wouldn't hesitate to put Waring in "if he thought he could provide a spark" (I paraphrase but he used the word spark). He also said he put Waring in yesterday for a couple series so Jefferson could watch from the sidelines (that's in the Pantagraph story today), but that Waring was put in a tough spot since the O was inside the 10 (at the half yard line on one "drive") both times. Ted Schmitz later pointed out later that not only better QB play was needed, but receivers need to get open, and better protection needed.

There are so many questions about or issues with the O:

I agree that Waring should get more PT at this point, whether its starting or "spark time". But, what about the O-line? Is it time for changes there? Yesterday, as much as I could tell it was pretty much the same 6 rotating up front - 2 seniors, 1 junior, 2 sophs, and 1 freshman. Already playing enough young guys?

Jefferson doesn't seem to be that skilled in avoiding the rush.

5 targets to TE's, one reception.

I'm gonna guess there were at least 5 drops yesterday. If those were catches, stats alone would have Jefferson at 50%, not to mention the yardage (and who knows, scores). But there really aren't any receivers we aren't playing, are there?

I could go on. Still a puzzle for me is that Spack has always seemed to point to Joe Tiller as a mentor. And Tiller is the "father" of the spread offense, or at least one of the successful proponents. Spack hasn't internalized all of that? Drew Brees was a PU QB when Spack was there?

Unrelated to the offense, sort of, lots of PT yesterday came to #37 on the D-Line. The only #37 on the ISU roster is FB Tyler Pennington. #37 is not listed in the participation report in the box score. Anyone know anything about this? Has Pennington switched to DL?
Agree on Tiller. Purdue was pretty much an offensive juggernaut under him (Brees, Orton, Painter, etc.)
Oh well…
 

CaliRdBrd

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 17, 2017
Messages
5,616
So let's say you are in the portal, a QB looking for a fresh start, some PT, etc. And Brock Spack comes calling, isn't your first question, "Who's your QB coach? What's his track record" and second question is "Who's your Offensive Coordinator? What's his track record?" Easy enough to "go shopping", show you have a need, but quite another to get yourself on the radar of one of the top potentials.
I would think the first question is, “can I play right away?”
 

Virginia Redbird

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 26, 2017
Messages
2,581
Location
Chesapeake, Virginia
I would think the first question is, “can I play right away?”
Yes, I think any player transferring would be concerned first with is he going to play right away. If not, they may as well stay where they are. After that, I think the player would look at the system to see if he fits and what kind of support he will have. Do your skills match the team's system and what is the makeup of the coaching staff. Toss out whether you liked Beathard or not, his resume was pretty solid and he had connections in FBS and NFL. If a player has aspirations to move to the next level that may be an important factor. That of course does not matter if you are not playing so playing is almost certainly the number one concern.
 

Total Red

Well-known member
Staff member
Joined
Jul 17, 2017
Messages
3,143
Location
One mile west of Hancock
Do we honestly think it's a great move to tell the media you are actively looking. He can tell the media that but I truly believe they are always looking.
Yes. I have heard of college coaches telling the media AND their own team that they are looking at players at their position. If a player is going to leave because you are recruiting another player to his position then you don't want him. That's a player that's afraid of competition. Good luck to that player because there is competition everywhere you go.

Regardless of what was said, it was what happened that matters. Nothing happened. Several other MVFC teams went out and brought in transfer QB's even though they ALREADY had a good QB. SIU had Nic Baker and they brought in 2 FBS transfers anyway. We chose to stand pat with what we had at QB knowing that the starting QB completed less than 50% of his passes in 2019 and the 2021spring and his backup was a freshman that had never thrown a pass in a game. There are people on this board that knew we weren't where we needed to be before the season started and the people that knew that know football.
 

redbirdfan04

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 1, 2017
Messages
1,139
Yes. I have heard of college coaches telling the media AND their own team that they are looking at players at their position. If a player is going to leave because you are recruiting another player to his position then you don't want him. That's a player that's afraid of competition. Good luck to that player because there is competition everywhere you go.

Regardless of what was said, it was what happened that matters. Nothing happened. Several other MVFC teams went out and brought in transfer QB's even though they ALREADY had a good QB. SIU had Nic Baker and they brought in 2 FBS transfers anyway. We chose to stand pat with what we had at QB knowing that the starting QB completed less than 50% of his passes in 2019 and the 2021spring and his backup was a freshman that had never thrown a pass in a game. There are people on this board that knew we weren't where we needed to be before the season started and the people that knew that know football.
Great points, I know I joked about being 8-3 but along with many of us that follow the team close knew we would struggle on offense. I never thought it would be this bad. I still think Waring should have got every snap this season and get each one going forward. I am curious to how many of these FBS QB transfers are actually starting for an FCS team and then how many are winning.
NDSU was a backup at Virgina Tech
SIU starter from last year
UND same as last year
SDSU was on team last year
Missouri state started at Utah and Utah State before this year
UNI was back up at Michigan State in 2019
YSU is a freshman
USD same as last year
WIU starter from last year
INSTU QB was a NIU backup
ISU we all know!

It look like a good mix in the valley, I have no idea about other conferences. Let's be honest NDSU has kids lined up to come. The Missouri State kid is proven and he can flat out play. UNI kid stats say he is not even average. INSTU kid same. So I do not think the valley made out with the current transfer portal. The MSU kid is the most impressive in my opinion. When it comes down to it I have no idea why we didnt bring in anyone. I wish we would have.
 

RBFANTOO

Active member
Joined
Jul 17, 2017
Messages
910
Location
Anywhere but Bradley
I question how well the defense is playing. That Missouri State game was definitely troubling. EIU is 0-4 and hung 24 on us. SIU is decent, but put up 35 on us.
Although it could be sai that the defense is simply tired from being in the field all day
I didn’t see the NDSU game, but it seems like could run at will on us so no need to throw?
When the offense constantly goes 3 and out that means the defense has to be on the field 90% of the game. That gives the opposing offense a lot of opportunities to score. The Redbird defense is really looking tired near the end of these games.
 

redbirdfan04

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 1, 2017
Messages
1,139
So let's say you are in the portal, a QB looking for a fresh start, some PT, etc. And Brock Spack comes calling, isn't your first question, "Who's your QB coach? What's his track record" and second question is "Who's your Offensive Coordinator? What's his track record?" Easy enough to "go shopping", show you have a need, but quite another to get yourself on the radar of one of the top potentials.
Great post. I think this says a lot here!
 

cherrybomb89

New member
Joined
Oct 5, 2021
Messages
7
Defense played well. Offense 99 yards total. 4/20 passing. Jefferson is not gonna produce wins.
Unfortunately, if no one can catch the ball, then it's not the QB's issue. Jefferson is a strong leader as a QB. Instead of looking at the players, we need to look at the coaching. Our QB has roughly 3 seconds to make a decision. What it comes down to is the fact that NDSU has a solid defense, not to mention they are ranked #3. The other thing is our team has been getting beaten up in the last couple games, so it's no surprise we are struggling as our team is trying to recover. Our boys tried their damn hardest out there but sometimes the other team is just better. We win some and we lose some. All we can take away from this is to learn how to get better and I just don't think it's fair to take it out on the QB solely. Not trying to be rude. Just an honest opinion.
 

Redbird222

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 18, 2017
Messages
5,274
I would think the first question is, “can I play right away?”
Use to be the first question.... now it's what is the average I can expect to receive from a NIL sponsorship? Can you provide me a list of current/active sponsors so I can do my due diligence
 

Redbird222

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 18, 2017
Messages
5,274
Yes. I have heard of college coaches telling the media AND their own team that they are looking at players at their position. If a player is going to leave because you are recruiting another player to his position then you don't want him. That's a player that's afraid of competition. Good luck to that player because there is competition everywhere you go.

Regardless of what was said, it was what happened that matters. Nothing happened. Several other MVFC teams went out and brought in transfer QB's even though they ALREADY had a good QB. SIU had Nic Baker and they brought in 2 FBS transfers anyway. We chose to stand pat with what we had at QB knowing that the starting QB completed less than 50% of his passes in 2019 and the 2021spring and his backup was a freshman that had never thrown a pass in a game. There are people on this board that knew we weren't where we needed to be before the season started and the people that knew that know football.
Or we tried recruiting some and they elected to go somewhere else. I am not sure why a pure pocket QB and WR would choose ISU first if they had lots of options. We emphasize the run and there is a history. I can see why defensive players, OL, and RB would be lining up especially with the performance the prior 7 years.
 

fourthandshort

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 17, 2017
Messages
9,699
At some point, the question has to come down to this .. is Spack capable of any or all of the following:
  1. identifying, recruiting, and developing HS QBs
  2. identifying, hiring, and allowing an OC to truly run the offense
  3. identifying, hiring, and allowing a QB coach to develop that HS QB
I honestly don't think Spack has this in him. Ive said hundreds of time, he builds every other aspect of his roster very well, especially defenses and RBs, even WRs at times. But I think he sees QBs as people who can lose a game for him with one throw or fumble. And he handles them accordingly.

I still believe this is what ruined Kolbe .. Dickens under Spack orders, that is. Previous 2 seasons, Kolbe was being prepared by Beathard ... a very knowledgeable and relaxed approach. Dickens was promoted middle of summer, when Beathard retired suddenly. Kolbe had a very impressive SO season in 2016, one could argue Beathards influence was still in play. Kolbe's stats that year were right up there with USD Streveler (NFL) , SDSU Christion, NDSU Stick (NFL ?), WIU McGuire, SIU Straughan .. all very good FCS QBs, with 2 in the NFL.

Here are the QB ratings from 2016: Kolbe was right there with all of them. He did struggle in pocket under pressure at times in 2016, but he could throw it proficiently. So he only needed to work on his comfort level in the pocket .. but he could clearly be trusted with the ball in his arm.

1634593384440.png

And here are the QB Ratings from 2017 .. a year later: note how far off Kolbe fell, and all the others improved a year later. SIU plugged in another good one to replace the 2016 stud. I explicitly recall how much Kolbe did to improve his pocket presence, to eliminate occasional bad plays under pressure - and those stats did improve a lot in 2017 - I had beat this topic to death in 2017. But IMO it came at the expense of his throwing and eventually got to him. For me, it's the difference between playing to make plays and win, as opposed to playing to not make mistakes or lose. Obviously, no one wants to make mistakes or lose .. but if you beat them over the head with it, it becomes counter productive.

1634593420398.png
 
Last edited:

MadBird

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 16, 2017
Messages
4,729
Location
Madison, Wisconsin
fourthandshort, I like to point out as often as possible, check the record book, Kolbe is one of the most prolific passers in ISU history, in spite of, or despite, what "happened" to him. Coaching, being "recruited over", whatever the eff happened. Still bugs me.

Totally agree with observations on our beloved Coach, somehow he can't get that OC/QB coach thing going consistently. I say "consistently" because there have been periods, years, where things were zooming along - Matt Brown, Beathard, Tre. Kolbe in the beginning. It hasn't been a total blank.
 

fourthandshort

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 17, 2017
Messages
9,699
fourthandshort, I like to point out as often as possible, check the record book, Kolbe is one of the most prolific passers in ISU history, in spite of, or despite, what "happened" to him. Coaching, being "recruited over", whatever the eff happened. Still bugs me.

Totally agree with observations on our beloved Coach, somehow he can't get that OC/QB coach thing going consistently. I say "consistently" because there have been periods, years, where things were zooming along - Matt Brown, Beathard, Tre. Kolbe in the beginning. It hasn't been a total blank.
Sadly, I get why they recruited over Kolbe in 2018. They ruined him mentally from 2016 into 2017 ... he became way too tentative and uptight in 2017 due to Dicken/Spack handling. This after a very promising 2016 season. Imagine after all the studs we lost from the 2014 and 2015 seasons ... and we go into Northwestern and beat them legit (stats and scoreboard) .. without Roberson, Coprich, O'Shaughnessy, Meredith, Liedtke (i.e. entire OL). Northwestern was very good that year. But our offense skill positions were loaded with talent AFTER losing Roberson/Coprich/Meredith/O'Shaughnessy .. the cupboard was anything but bare on offense, and well before we found out how good JR would become.

Back to 2016 offense (pass and run game) .. we had 3 WRs in top 9 in receptions. So we had a SO QB, 1 SO WR, 1 JR WR, 1 SR WR leading the conference in 2016 ... why did our pass game fall off so far in 2017 ? We had rebuilt our OL after losing all 5 starters from 2014-15. Check out the WR company .. Goedert and Tonyan are NFL starters, Lenoir was on and off NFL practice squads. Wieneke made an NFL practice squad, but now leading WR for CFL Montreal.

1634637278310.png

Plus we were set at RB with below committee .. SR Towns, true FR Robinson, true SO Moreira, RS FR Corbin, plus true FR Jordan Birch and Artis Henderson. Granted most left as JR emerged, but we were stacked if JR didn't turn out to be all american.

1634638416098.png

Why such a fall off in 2017 with this loaded young group ? We did make quarters in 2019, but we all know it was due to dominant defense and run game.

Love everything Spack has done and still does for this program - we could not do any better with anyone else this last decade. I'm even pretty sure we will bounce back by next year. But it won't be our pass game that does it - it will be defense and run game. But we will always be a top 8-16 level defense and run game team with a pass game that holds us back from being a Top 5-10 level team more often. As is, we'll likely continue to be a quarterfinals level team about 1 every 3 years ... very good, but more would be possible if Spack would loosen his reins on pass game. But at some point, the FCS game could pass by Spack, if he doesn't adapt to today's pass game, especially playing in MVFC.

Now imagine this pitch from Spack to an up and coming prospective OC/QB coach ... I can promise you a very strong defense and run game. But I need you to find us QBs, develop them and our pass game. Then when youre ready to move to next level, and help me find my next OC so you can move on. Problem there is, Spack's rep will precede him - it would be a very hard sell. So it would also have to come from the AD.
 
Last edited:

Virginia Redbird

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 26, 2017
Messages
2,581
Location
Chesapeake, Virginia
The problems offensively with this team go past the QB. Eventually, it lands at the doorstep of Coach Spack. He sets the system, chooses the coaches, approves the game plan and recruits the players (both sides of the ball). Good or bad it always ends up with the Head Coach. Has to! I think Spack gets the ship underway again. Tough defense, solid running game but minimal passing attack. Winning record most years, quarter and semi-finals every so often but no Championships. You have to have a balanced offense to win a Championship. You can't just run and play defense. Better than losing records every year but don't expect a Championship in Normal until the offense gets more attention.
 

redbirdfan04

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 1, 2017
Messages
1,139
The problems offensively with this team go past the QB. Eventually, it lands at the doorstep of Coach Spack. He sets the system, chooses the coaches, approves the game plan and recruits the players (both sides of the ball). Good or bad it always ends up with the Head Coach. Has to! I think Spack gets the ship underway again. Tough defense, solid running game but minimal passing attack. Winning record most years, quarter and semi-finals every so often but no Championships. You have to have a balanced offense to win a Championship. You can't just run and play defense. Better than losing records every year but don't expect a Championship in Normal until the offense gets more attention.
Spack has been the coach since 2009. Only 5 teams have won the Championship in that time, Villanova, Eastern Washington, James Madison, NDSU, and Sam Houston last year in spring. 7 other teams have lost in the finals inluding ISU. There are 128 teams currently at the FCS level. 3% of all the teams have won a championship since Spack has been the coach. 9% of the teams have even made it and ISU is on that list.

I love FCS for the fact they run a one and done 24 team playoff. It is tough to get through and it seems the teams that recruit the best do the best, not just reload from the portal each year. I know some would like to be an FBS school but fighting for a playoff spot and watching the FCS playoffs is way more exciting than playing in the Little ceasars bowl or the Idaho Potato bowl in my opinion.

I agree it all falls on Spack as the Head Coach and I believe he has done a great job.
 

Virginia Redbird

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 26, 2017
Messages
2,581
Location
Chesapeake, Virginia
Spack has been the coach since 2009. Only 5 teams have won the Championship in that time, Villanova, Eastern Washington, James Madison, NDSU, and Sam Houston last year in spring. 7 other teams have lost in the finals inluding ISU. There are 128 teams currently at the FCS level. 3% of all the teams have won a championship since Spack has been the coach. 9% of the teams have even made it and ISU is on that list.

I love FCS for the fact they run a one and done 24 team playoff. It is tough to get through and it seems the teams that recruit the best do the best, not just reload from the portal each year. I know some would like to be an FBS school but fighting for a playoff spot and watching the FCS playoffs is way more exciting than playing in the Little ceasars bowl or the Idaho Potato bowl in my opinion.

I agree it all falls on Spack as the Head Coach and I believe he has done a great job.
So you are a big supporter of the status quo. Why not be James Madison, Villanova, or Eastern Washington? I like the FCS playoffs...I just don't think Spack will ever win the FCS until he begins to invest in the offensive passing game.
 

redbirdfan04

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 1, 2017
Messages
1,139
We are a few plays from being one of those schools. ISU football under Spack is not the status quo. My point is how hard it is to win it all. No, I don't want to be any one of schools even this year. I am an ISU fan. Funny how you left NDSU out. It is easy to say he will never win a championship. ISU has never won an FCS championship and that will never stop me from going to games.
 

Virginia Redbird

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 26, 2017
Messages
2,581
Location
Chesapeake, Virginia
We are a few plays from being one of those schools. ISU football under Spack is not the status quo. My point is how hard it is to win it all. No, I don't want to be any one of schools even this year. I am an ISU fan. Funny how you left NDSU out. It is easy to say he will never win a championship. ISU has never won an FCS championship and that will never stop me from going to games.
We really don't have an argument but a couple of comments. Football is all about just a few plays, that is the game in the end. Lots of plays in a football game but you make a few and you win, you don't and you lose. Spack has been the Head Coach for over 10 years, he is the status quo for now. I left NDSU out because NOBODY is NDSU. I am talking about winning a single Championship, not 10 or more. I also never said I would not watch the Redbirds if they don't win a Championship. I said I don't think Spack will win a championship if he does not fix the offense. I still believe that to be the case. You did not say you disagree, you just don't care. Okay, I have no problem with that. You said, "We are just a few plays from being one of those teams" but "No, I don't want to be any one of schools even this year." Why not? Does being an ISU fan mean you can't want to win a Championship? I have posted on here that Spack has been good for the program. He has been successful and I have never called for him to be replaced. I commented that he has an offensive problem.
 

fourthandshort

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 17, 2017
Messages
9,699
We really don't have an argument but a couple of comments. Football is all about just a few plays, that is the game in the end. Lots of plays in a football game but you make a few and you win, you don't and you lose. Spack has been the Head Coach for over 10 years, he is the status quo for now. I left NDSU out because NOBODY is NDSU. I am talking about winning a single Championship, not 10 or more. I also never said I would not watch the Redbirds if they don't win a Championship. I said I don't think Spack will win a championship if he does not fix the offense. I still believe that to be the case. You did not say you disagree, you just don't care. Okay, I have no problem with that. You said, "We are just a few plays from being one of those teams" but "No, I don't want to be any one of schools even this year." Why not? Does being an ISU fan mean you can't want to win a Championship? I have posted on here that Spack has been good for the program. He has been successful and I have never called for him to be replaced. I commented that he has an offensive problem.
agree completely.

For me, there is really just one priority for any sports program at any level (eh, HS & above) .... be competitive/entertaining/respectable. To do that more consistently, you of course have to strive to be able to win championships .. your conference, your playoff. Everyone should strive to win these chanpionships. That has to be the culture from top to bottom .. win games, win chanpionships.

But in the end, we're all just fans who want to watch competitive/entertaining/respectable football .. or basketball or badminton .. whatever.

That said, I'll never forget the look on Spacks face, walking from the bus to Frisco stadium with the players. Proud papa .. with a bad case of, you know, seasonal allergies dripping from his eyes. Or the moment Tre coasted into the end zone untouched with 1:38 remaining in game, only to watch it slip away on and underthrown deep ball from Wentz. For the players, the coaches, the school, the fans, the town ... great memories every once in a while.

And we don't need to fire Spack because he can't figure out the pass game, nor if he doesn't get us to another Natty. I just like watching competitive/entertaining/respectable football ... I'll be happy. So let's keep trying to win championships and have fun trying, mostly falling short ... I'll be just fine for those worried about me.

1634821074516.png
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom