FIRE BROCK SPACK

MadBird

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 16, 2017
Messages
4,036
Location
Madison, Wisconsin
I think my 3 are kinda realistic. Guidli seems likely. Rees or More would be homers, but not unrealistic if contracts & assistants can be configured.
Kinda realistic, but only if those guys are willing to take huge pay cuts for the honor of coaching old State U. Possible they could afford Guidigli. Maybe.
 

fourthandshort

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 17, 2017
Messages
8,952
As ive always said my only issues are related to QB and passing inadequacies ... two things:

1. No success with #1 QB passing outside of Matt Brown (inherited), 2014-15 Roberson (transfer), and 2016 Kolbe ... with Kolbe being the only success story as a Spack HS recruit .. and that lasted just 1 season.

2. Which brings us to item 2, as revealed once again in the YSU game ... weve never had a decent prepared #2 QB ... never. Other than from 2009 and 2010, when he inherited 3 good ones (Brown, Lancaster, Kiel) from prior coach. But Brown was very good and healthy .. so the 2 good backups left .. one after 2009, the other after 2010 ... so eventual stud WR Meredith became the #2 behind Brown. And when Brown graduated, did Meredith become starter .... no, he was moved to WR, where he flourished in stud.

During and since then, it has been a parade of QBs that never played, switched positions, or faded quietly out of picture. Too often, we'll have a non-schollie QB as our #3, which becomes a big deal if your #1 goes down.

I liked Bryce Jefferson .. thinking and hoping he had true upside with dual threat skills that could be developed - he was at least comfortable in pocket and could run. Turned out he couldn't throw consistently or resist the urge to throw into trouble under pressure. So yes, I was wrong about Jefferson. But im just a fan and im not there seeing them every day .. coaches are paid to do this.

Think about the last 2 reg season games after a mediocre (fast start, quick fade) transfer QB Davis went down ... a complete debacle revealed when we couldn't even get our #2 Jefferson on field. And then proceeded to throw pick 6 on first pass from scrimmage once we got Jefferson on field.

But weve never have a #2 QB come in ready to play, nor develop from a #2 into a solid #1 QB . Other than for 1 season in 2016 with Kolbe. But he was not ready at all when Roberson went down in 2015 .. Roberson had to play with a broken hand. Recall the 2015 UNI game where Roberson played with Kolbe as decoy all game. Yes, Spack confused UNI completely and won an important tough game the week Roberson got injured. Ultimately, by 2017, Kolbe lost all confidence after a very promising 2016.

So back to YSU game with Annexstad not able to go and we have to go to our #2 RS FR Rittenhouse against YSU .. another totally inexperienced and unproven QB is are only option. Where are Bryce Jefferson, Jack Baltz, and now Jackson Waring ? All out of the picture. Same as usual since 2010.

Now we have a legit OC Peterson ... I want to see what he can do to build up our QB depth chart and pass game. I still believe Spack is our best option, but the window is closing .. I want to see what OC Peterson can do. But I worry why our offense is so anemic in 1nd half compared to 1st half .. and wonder if Spack is driving OC Peterson slowly nuts. or if Peterson is on same page and still trying to build our offense.

Hope Annexstad is back for SDSU. We still should have won this game against a very solid YSU team .. even without our #1 QB and #1 RB on a very windy day against one of the top RBs in FCS. Spack gives us a chance to win games like these ... but the passing game and 2nd half offensive play remains a big concern.
 

Virginia Redbird

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 26, 2017
Messages
2,441
Location
Chesapeake, Virginia
Spack inherited Brown and in 2014 when Tre arrived Kurt Beathard also arrived as the new offensive coordinator. Quite a few offensive records were set in 2014-2015. I don't think it was a coincidence.


I think Peterson has done a good job this season. I hope the Birds can keep him and get some consistency and stability with the offense.
 

MadBird

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 16, 2017
Messages
4,036
Location
Madison, Wisconsin
As ive always said my only issues are related to QB and passing inadequacies ... two things:

1. No success with #1 QB passing outside of Matt Brown (inherited), 2014-15 Roberson (transfer), and 2016 Kolbe ... with Kolbe being the only success story as a Spack HS recruit .. and that lasted just 1 season.

2. Which brings us to item 2, as revealed once again in the YSU game ... weve never had a decent prepared #2 QB ... never. Other than from 2009 and 2010, when he inherited 3 good ones (Brown, Lancaster, Kiel) from prior coach. But Brown was very good and healthy .. so the 2 good backups left .. one after 2009, the other after 2010 ... so eventual stud WR Meredith became the #2 behind Brown. And when Brown graduated, did Meredith become starter .... no, he was moved to WR, where he flourished in stud.

During and since then, it has been a parade of QBs that never played, switched positions, or faded quietly out of picture. Too often, we'll have a non-schollie QB as our #3, which becomes a big deal if your #1 goes down.

I liked Bryce Jefferson .. thinking and hoping he had true upside with dual threat skills that could be developed - he was at least comfortable in pocket and could run. Turned out he couldn't throw consistently or resist the urge to throw into trouble under pressure. So yes, I was wrong about Jefferson. But im just a fan and im not there seeing them every day .. coaches are paid to do this.

Think about the last 2 reg season games after a mediocre (fast start, quick fade) transfer QB Davis went down ... a complete debacle revealed when we couldn't even get our #2 Jefferson on field. And then proceeded to throw pick 6 on first pass from scrimmage once we got Jefferson on field.

But weve never have a #2 QB come in ready to play, nor develop from a #2 into a solid #1 QB . Other than for 1 season in 2016 with Kolbe. But he was not ready at all when Roberson went down in 2015 .. Roberson had to play with a broken hand. Recall the 2015 UNI game where Roberson played with Kolbe as decoy all game. Yes, Spack confused UNI completely and won an important tough game the week Roberson got injured. Ultimately, by 2017, Kolbe lost all confidence after a very promising 2016.

So back to YSU game with Annexstad not able to go and we have to go to our #2 RS FR Rittenhouse against YSU .. another totally inexperienced and unproven QB is are only option. Where are Bryce Jefferson, Jack Baltz, and now Jackson Waring ? All out of the picture. Same as usual since 2010.

Now we have a legit OC Peterson ... I want to see what he can do to build up our QB depth chart and pass game. I still believe Spack is our best option, but the window is closing .. I want to see what OC Peterson can do. But I worry why our offense is so anemic in 1nd half compared to 1st half .. and wonder if Spack is driving OC Peterson slowly nuts. or if Peterson is on same page and still trying to build our offense.

Hope Annexstad is back for SDSU. We still should have won this game against a very solid YSU team .. even without our #1 QB and #1 RB on a very windy day against one of the top RBs in FCS. Spack gives us a chance to win games like these ... but the passing game and 2nd half offensive play remains a big concern.
I've bickered with 4thandshort before on this topic, and it isn't so much I disagree with his pretty much fact-based reasoned points, but that I don't think he tells both side of the story, more or less. 4th always blames Spack for QB problems, but doesn't really seem to give him credit for the positives. Anyway, in the end, I'm of two minds on the Spack - QB issue.

Yes, Matt Brown wasn't recruited by Spack, but he stayed here for 4 years, and played under Spack for 4 years and became a record setting QB under Spack. So, you know, the transfer landscape has changed since 2009, but Brown could have left any time.

Likewise, Roberson just wasn't dropped off at the door and told to play at ISU, he came here presumably after being recruited here by Spack (and assistants), and "allowed" to play and flourish and do his thing. Under Spack.

Kolbe is a top 5 career record QB for ISU, had two pretty solid years, and was sort of thrown under the bus by Beathard to allow "his guy" Davis to take the helm. One way to look at it, right or wrong. But in any case, had two pretty good seasons under Spack.

And Davis wasn't my favorite, but give him his due, he had a couple pretty decent seasons under HC Brock Spack. I assume Beathard was the driving force in getting him here, but Spack was still the HC.

So that is 10 seasons of pretty decent QB play under Coach Spack - 4 from Brown, 2 from Tre, 2 from Kolbe, and 2 from Davis. Let's give him credit for that - these guys came to ISU and played at ISU under his leadership, his assistant coaches and his offense.

Between Brown and Roberson, we had a year of Blake Winkler at QB, who was a HS player recruited by Spack. His stats weren't all that gaudy for ISU, but he was the Illinois HS player of the year his senior year, was all-state, etc. etc. So it wasn't all that bad to have recruited him and turned over the car keys to him as a RS freshman when Brown moved on. I have no idea what went happened, but Roberson was brought in and took over for Winkler before he could advance his career. He left after the run to Frisco an was a QB no more.

Jefferson also had some great HS stats, looked like a decent prospect at QB, but for one reason or another never panned out. I'm not sure why that one mistake, so to speak, has brought Spack so much criticism when compared to the 10 seasons of pretty damn good QB play.

Anyway, so then there's the other side of it, which I can't disagree with 4th much. Thank God we haven't often needed a back up QB over those years. Kolbe was there but otherwise hard to find one. Another thing I've always noticed, it's not like ISU has had prospects here who picked up and left and made a name for themselves someplace else. Most often, our "backup" QB's, they guys who came but didn't play much, didn't leave and go on to another school at any level and play some ball. They quit playing, they moved to other positions, or ??? That does make we wonder about the ability to spot the talent needed. Our leading passer from 2021 isn't even our backup QB this year. And Waring looked pretty good last year.

But we've all said "it's a new era" and the portal is here to stay, so okay, recruiting a guy out of HS may not be all that it used to be and as long as there's decent guy there, who cares how he came to ISU?

Anyway, enough. My point is only that I don't think, overall, the Spack QB record is all that bad. Not very good at all the last couple years, but for the first 10 years pretty decent.
 

MadBird

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 16, 2017
Messages
4,036
Location
Madison, Wisconsin
Just to follow up, a quick list of former "QB's of the future" or backup QB's who moved on and/or changed positions.

2012 - Adam Pittser, moved to DL
2013 - Trevor Rea, transferred to Dixie St. and played one year
2015 - Hasan Muhammed-Rogers, transferred to DII Lincoln U, and played safety
2015 - DeMarco Washington, moved to LB; Koty Thelen, played as PK holder
2016 - Tristan Smith, transferred to DII Southern Arkansas; Malachi Broadnax, moved to DB then transferred to DII Mo.Southern
2016 - Jacob Donohue, gone but ???
2017 - Conor Joyce, transferred to DIII North Central
2017 - Trenton Hatfield, transferred to Ball State, playing safety
2019 - Jack Baltz, transferred to JC but not playing now?; Britton Morris, transferred to DIII UW-Platteville, but not playing??

And of course Bryce Jefferson, who transferred to DII U of Indianapolis, but I don't see on the roster this year. Oh, and I left Cameron Meredith off too, obviously moved to WR and had some success. ;)

These years aren't necessarily the last years they played at ISU but they were on the roster at some point there. Anyway, you get the idea. None of those guys moved on and were developed by anyone else as a QB.
 

Virginia Redbird

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 26, 2017
Messages
2,441
Location
Chesapeake, Virginia
Just to follow up, a quick list of former "QB's of the future" or backup QB's who moved on and/or changed positions.

2012 - Adam Pittser, moved to DL
2013 - Trevor Rea, transferred to Dixie St. and played one year
2015 - Hasan Muhammed-Rogers, transferred to DII Lincoln U, and played safety
2015 - DeMarco Washington, moved to LB; Koty Thelen, played as PK holder
2016 - Tristan Smith, transferred to DII Southern Arkansas; Malachi Broadnax, moved to DB then transferred to DII Mo.Southern
2016 - Jacob Donohue, gone but ???
2017 - Conor Joyce, transferred to DIII North Central
2017 - Trenton Hatfield, transferred to Ball State, playing safety
2019 - Jack Baltz, transferred to JC but not playing now?; Britton Morris, transferred to DIII UW-Platteville, but not playing??

And of course Bryce Jefferson, who transferred to DII U of Indianapolis, but I don't see on the roster this year. Oh, and I left Cameron Meredith off too, obviously moved to WR and had some success. ;)

These years aren't necessarily the last years they played at ISU but they were on the roster at some point there. Anyway, you get the idea. None of those guys moved on and were developed by anyone else as a QB.
I recall Spack commenting once that his focus in recruiting QBs was their athleticism. The inference was he recruited QBs looking for what positions he could move them to. Quite a few former QBs he recruited on this list ended up as DBs. Nothing wrong with that and quite a few college players change positions from what they played in HS but I always wondered if Spack had an eye for how any player he recruited could help his defense. In today's situation recruiting out of HS is not as important as maybe it used to be. You can pick up a guy out of the portal that is talented but behind someone more talented on the depth chart. That is also why it is hard to keep really good backup players today. If you are a good player but playing behind a real stud or All-American at your position, well today you can just go into the portal and start somewhere else. It is an option for you. In the not-too-distant future, I think a player that remains all 5 years at one school will be a rarity. I don't think that is a good thing but it is where the system is at.
 

fourthandshort

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 17, 2017
Messages
8,952
I recall Spack commenting once that his focus in recruiting QBs was their athleticism. The inference was he recruited QBs looking for what positions he could move them to. Quite a few former QBs he recruited on this list ended up as DBs. Nothing wrong with that and quite a few college players change positions from what they played in HS but I always wondered if Spack had an eye for how any player he recruited could help his defense. In today's situation recruiting out of HS is not as important as maybe it used to be. You can pick up a guy out of the portal that is talented but behind someone more talented on the depth chart. That is also why it is hard to keep really good backup players today. If you are a good player but playing behind a real stud or All-American at your position, well today you can just go into the portal and start somewhere else. It is an option for you. In the not-too-distant future, I think a player that remains all 5 years at one school will be a rarity. I don't think that is a good thing but it is where the system is at.
I've come to accept we will always depend on transfer QBs. But the only way to build a QB depth chart is thru HS recruitment. No decent QB will transfer and stay here, to be a #2 .. so we need a guy like OC Peterson to help identify, recruit, develop, and ultimately be able to execute in games when it is their turn. This is so sorely missing from our program ... the single biggest need and where Spack needs to recognize his shortcomings .. and then come to rely on someone like OC Peterson to help him do this better. We do good to very well everywhere else. But unless we have a dominant run game and defense like 2019, the lack of even a solid pass game means we will struggle to win more than 6 or 7 games, and make playoffs.

As for the Fire Spack crowd .. we are a strong well respected FCS program who plays in the best conference in FCS / I-AA history IMO .... a decade of playoff dominance I don't think has any comparison historically .. and not just NDSU. Nor just NDSU/SDSU. The collective playoff record against non-MVFC teams is about a .650 win rate excluding NDSU ... while playing more often on the road, and more often against teams supposedly ranked higher. The .650 would likely be better if NDSU weren't also knocking out some of our own teams. This being all the evidence needed to demonstrate the MVFC doesn't get as many bids as it should. If we did, our record excl NDSU's .950 win ratio) would be closer to or below .500.

And the notion these playoff results don't mean anything when it comes to disappointment in Spack's record doesn't make objective sense. If we were an Ole Miss or Auburn or Tennessee or Florida State .. would they really fire a good coach every few years because they couldn't beat Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, LSU more regularly ? Taking thins point further ... this is FCS with limited budgets ... they grass is not always greener with the next guy. Then we will probably be longing for the Spack Days when our defense ad overall toughness was feared, even in the best FCS conference ever.

Strength of schedule means something. And I would never want to play in the OVC just to have a better record.
 

Total Red

Well-known member
Staff member
Joined
Jul 17, 2017
Messages
2,801
Location
One mile west of Hancock
I'll sort of agree with both sides because there are times that we've gotten the QB position/offense right under Coach Spack and stretches where we did not.

The end of the 2019 season sticks with me the most because that team had a lot of potential if we could get the QB position right. The 2019 team was 8-3 through the first 11 games with Brady Davis at QB. Those 11 games included highly ranked opponents NDSU, SDSU and N. Iowa. It also included a game at N. Illinois. When Davis went down to injury the quarterbacking fell apart. Jefferson and Baltz were a combined 17 of 46 with 6 ints and 1 td. Trenton Hatfield was a former QB on the 2019 roster as a Safety. Hatfield had a great prep career in Muncie, IN and I thought he looked good when I saw him practice as a freshman. But Hatfield got moved to RB in 2018. I assumed that the coaching staff knew what it was doing. If Hatfield wasn't needed at QB then Jefferson and Baltz must be pretty good. They weren't. Hatfield had over 7,000 yards passing in HS and when he was moved to RB in '18 he got onto the field with 8 carries for 39 yards, so he was a good all-around athlete. I can't believe that Hatfield couldn't have done better. It was a terrible misevaluation. In desperation Hatfield did get moved from Safety back to QB late in 2019, and he did get on the field in the N. Dakota St. playoff game, but it was too little way too late.

Some will say that those are the breaks. When the starting QB goes down the team is bound to feel it. Well I've always used SIU as a yardstick and I look at what they did the following year. SIU started the '20-21 spring season with Juco transfer Kare Lyles at QB. Lyles went down to injury in the first game of the spring against North Dakota. 5'9 Soph Nic Baker took over at QB. The next game was against North Dakota St. and it was Baker's first time starting a college game. Baker/SIU beat NDSU 38-14. Later that season Baker was injured and Juco transfer Stone Labanowitz took over. Labanowitz led the team to a 55-48 victory over SE Lou in the final game of the regular season. The win put SIU in the playoffs but they had to travel to #3 Weber St. SIU/Labanowitz won 34-31. SIU got knocked out by #2 So. Dak St. in the next round 31-26. SIU didn't have to rely on just the ground game and great defense. They maintained a productive offense with QB's #2 and #3.

It was during this time I began to question the ability of our coaching staff to identify, recruit and develop QB's.

But I don't just take a snapshot of a moment in time and slap a label on it - "Coach Spack can't coach QB's/offense." As Mad points out we've enjoyed periods of high-octane offense led by the QB - Brown, Roberson and at times Davis.

Right now we don't have as much depth at QB as I would like and the current injury is hurting us, but the QB position looks to be fairly strong next season if both Annexstad and Rittenhouse return.
 

Virginia Redbird

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 26, 2017
Messages
2,441
Location
Chesapeake, Virginia
Fire the coach is just the nature of sports fans. I read this week that a former player is questioning the health of the program and if Nick Saban should remain because they lost TWO GAMES! Yeah, Alabama is out of the National Championship discussion and probably the SEC championship discussion so Saban has got to go! I exaggerated a bit and Nick is safe as in his Mama's arms but it just goes to show the fickle nature of fans. Also, success breeds this type of comment. I do think when you are in one place long term you can get stagnant. Fresh blood and a fresh outlook can be a good thing but it is also risky. One of the most amazing things to me about the NDSU championship run is they have done it while changing head coaches several times. The head coach changes but the program simply goes rolling along without much of a hiccup. They choose wisely it seems.
 

crazzymark

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 18, 2017
Messages
1,704
Well they're going to have to replace 30 players I heard that a number of players are leaving if they don't make the playoffs so including our running back so I hope that they can replace 30 quality players they have a number of two and three star so I hope we can they bring in a top level coach will do that
 

crazzymark

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 18, 2017
Messages
1,704
WOW! Those stats are Horrible. Didn't know that.
Fire the coach is just the nature of sports fans. I read this week that a former player is questioning the health of the program and if Nick Saban should remain because they lost TWO GAMES! Yeah, Alabama is out of the National Championship discussion and probably the SEC championship discussion so Saban has got to go! I exaggerated a bit and Nick is safe as in his Mama's arms but it just goes to show the fickle nature of fans. Also, success breeds this type of comment. I do think when you are in one place long term you can get stagnant. Fresh blood and a fresh outlook can be a good thing but it is also risky. One of the most amazing things to me about the NDSU championship run is they have done it while changing head coaches several times. The head coach changes but the program simply goes rolling along without much of a hiccup. They choose wisely it seems.
We lost that game against Youngstown State because he went to prevent offense we had a chance to get a first down three different times he just ran up the middle and didn't try didn't make a pass nothing don't feel good temp with the wind behind him nothing he doesn't deserve it and we deserve better as alumni and fans
 

crazzymark

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 18, 2017
Messages
1,704
I want to know where it really happened to coach sprack, when we are going for a national championship none of our players are 100% somewhere at 50% or 60% but they want to be out there and they went to win. Now has mentality I don't want this player to be 88 years old to having a limp so we can't play him you're not going to win the national championship that way. The schools are trying to win the national championship they understand the sacrifice of the game and for some reason coach does not want to do that anymore he doesn't. you know we're never going to win the national championship that way because no one's ever going to be 100%. And the funny thing is if we were in the Mac or the AAC or the conference USA we'd have a bowl game regardless and we make millions of dollars off that bowl game. Nope we'll be sitting at home and not playing at all but let's let's reflect on that shall we.
 

Cheesehead

New member
Joined
Mar 27, 2021
Messages
17
Well they're going to have to replace 30 players I heard that a number of players are leaving if they don't make the playoffs so including our running back so I hope that they can replace 30 quality players they have a number of two and three star so I hope we can they bring in a top level coach will do that
False
 

crazzymark

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 18, 2017
Messages
1,704
I'm curious where Zack goes after the season he's a good quarterback on board to following him later or whatever college he decides to go to
 

Virginia Redbird

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 26, 2017
Messages
2,441
Location
Chesapeake, Virginia
We lost that game against Youngstown State because he went to prevent offense we had a chance to get a first down three different times he just ran up the middle and didn't try didn't make a pass nothing don't feel good temp with the wind behind him nothing he doesn't deserve it and we deserve better as alumni and fans
I don't disagree with the YSU game and have said so on this forum. Playing not to lose instead of to win and yes ... I think he has created a hunker-down attitude in this team. Go all out the first half and then hunker down in the second half and play defense hoping to hold them off. I don't think that is a championship mentality.
As far as what the alumni and fans deserve, well I do not see ISU buying out his contract and I think he will be the Head Coach until the contract runs out. I don't think anyone in the Athletic Department cares if the fans are unhappy or not. They will make their decision based on performance as one factor but dollars will reign as the supreme factor I believe. Coach Spack is going nowhere.
 
Top Bottom