FBS versus FCS...the debate continues at both levels.

[redbirddad10]

I've got to believe with all the financial pressures on Higher Education there will be a major review of the finances of College Sports.
Marginal D1 schools will have plenty of issues to consider 2021 and beyond and continuing to pay a premium to have a marginal FBS football program will be one.
FCS is a logical step for Programs outside the Power 5.
I fully support the comment that most casual College fans have no idea what the differences are between FBS and FCS.
The question is what will the Alumni think/support. I have some experience with Higher Ed and you would be shocked to hear how much voice key Alumni have over issues like a shift from FBS to FCS!
I agree that more regionally focused Conferences could also help Universities cut cost and increase Student interest. Look at the student interest in our directional games vs even ranked FCS teams??? 4th? Where are you?
Changes are sure to come, COVID is expediting it.

 

[Total Red]

It's a never ending discussion. Do you want to be at the top of the bottom or the bottom of the top? I'd rather be at the Top of the Bottom. The MVFC is at the top as THE Premier FCS conference. The top team in the MVFC not only has a chance to be a National Champion it becomes the odds on favorite. Illinois State came within an whisker of being that team in 2015 and the Championship pursuit continues.

But regardless of your preference football-wise (MVFC vs. MAC), you can't get your arms around the issue until you understand the fact that basketball has always been in the driver's seat. I was at Illinois State in the late 70's when the school was an Independent in football and basketball but felt it was time to decide between the MAC and The Valley. It was a simple choice. Basketball was king. MVC member Indiana State had reached the title game of the NCAA basketball tournament in 1979 and it was perceived as the much better choice for roundball. Illinois State joined the Valley in 1981.

You can properly claim that a lot has changed since then and that Valley basketball is not what it used to be but the fact remains that there only a handful of fans that really care whether we play Missouri State as opposed to Ball State or Southern Ill as opposed to Northern Ill. MBA makes some good arguments for what the MAC has to offer but it won't go far enough. Valley Football is UP. Valley basketball is trending down but it gives a school like Illinois State more hope of winning the conference tourney and being the one bid. Bottom line - It would take a lot to get us to switch conferences at this point. The juice just isn't there.

Also -I prefer weekend games. It can get cold in Nov and December but the possibility of the sun shining provides a fighting chance for decent weather. Meanwhile every Redbird Football game is televised. I saw every Illinois State football game played last season through a variety of television/online options - NBC Sports Chicago, ESPN+, ESPN3, or ESPN. I like ESPN3 because I can see the game more than once.

 

[TIMMY]

don't have time to read right now ... but I agree with his point, 'the best leagues are bus leagues". Regional rivalries are usually the best rivalries. I think that should be the focus of all conferences. Some of these conferences today just make no sense with how far teams have to travel to play teams none of their fans know or care to know. Obvciously, as youget to P5 FBS, that becomes slightly less an issue .. but point is same there .. though a bigger radius for bigger schools makes complete sense. For FCS and below, regional is the way to go. G5 is debatable, but not really. Fan interest is usually highest in games against teams they know regionally and have history with.

ISU
EIU
WIU
SIU
Indy St.
UNI
MSU
SEMO
Would be a pretty cool football conference if you ask me. No one has asked so there's that.

 

[GhostofMBA]

It's a never ending discussion. Do you want to be at the top of the bottom or the bottom of the top? I'd rather be at the Top of the Bottom. The MVFC is at the top as THE Premier FCS conference. The top team in the MVFC not only has a chance to be a National Champion it becomes the odds on favorite. Illinois State came within an whisker of being that team in 2015 and the Championship pursuit continues.

But regardless of your preference football-wise (MVFC vs. MAC), you can't get your arms around the issue until you understand the fact that basketball has always been in the driver's seat. I was at Illinois State in the late 70's when the school was an Independent in football and basketball but felt it was time to decide between the MAC and The Valley. It was a simple choice. Basketball was king. MVC member Indiana State had reached the title game of the NCAA basketball tournament in 1979 and it was perceived as the much better choice for roundball. Illinois State joined the Valley in 1981.

You can properly claim that a lot has changed since then and that Valley basketball is not what it used to be but the fact remains that there only a handful of fans that really care whether we play Missouri State as opposed to Ball State or Southern Ill as opposed to Northern Ill. MBA makes some good arguments for what the MAC has to offer but it won't go far enough. Valley Football is UP. Valley basketball is trending down but it gives a school like Illinois State more hope of winning the conference tourney and being the one bid. Bottom line - It would take a lot to get us to switch conferences at this point. The juice just isn't there.

Also -I prefer weekend games. It can get cold in Nov and December but the possibility of the sun shining provides a fighting chance for decent weather. Meanwhile every Redbird Football game is televised. I saw every Illinois State football game played last season through a variety of television/online options - NBC Sports Chicago, ESPN+, ESPN3, or ESPN. I like ESPN3 because I can see the game more than once.

TR, appreciate sharing the history. I do agree, going FBS is a non-starter at ISU and any that discussion is fantasy talk during the off-season. I do believe that window closed again when Bowman left. I do not see Dietz or Lyons doing anything except riding it out.

 

[StLRedbird]

ISU
EIU
WIU
SIU
Indy St.
UNI
MSU
SEMO
Would be a pretty cool football conference if you ask me. No one has asked so there's that.

The founders of the Gateway Football Conference would be perfectly aligned with your thinking here. Founding members ISUr, SIU, UNI, MSU, WIU, and EIU, added ISUb a year later when the Sycs decided D-IAA was the better choice for them. I often wonder how things might have gone differently if this group would have embraced DI-A, but that was not seriously considered, at least not that I can recall.

EIU left in the 90s and was replaced by Youngstown. Then came the Dakotas, NDSU & SDSU (2008), USD (2012), UND (2020). The nature of the league has changed from it's original conception. But I think it's safe to say the MVFC would not be The Premier League in FCS had it not embraced the Dakota schools. The Big Sky would be trumpeting that title. I imagine there are other opinions about that though.

But I don't know how any discussion of this can occur without including the fracture in the MVC along public/private and football/no-football lines. It's not a stable configuration. It's makeup encourages tension along football/no-football lines.

 

[StLRedbird]

TR, appreciate sharing the history. I do agree, going FBS is a non-starter at ISU and any that discussion is fantasy talk during the off-season. I do believe that window closed again when Bowman left. I do not see Dietz or Lyons doing anything except riding it out.

Agree with both of you. I think it's a useful put to say this here. I believe that it's commonly known that an application by ISU for all sports into the MAC would be met receptively. Might have to wait for an opening, but the application would be stamped "approved". Also, I think it's commonly understood that an application for football only would be stamped "rejected". Just some context setting. Would appreciate different perspectives.

Also think it's a fair question to ask this here: Would ISU be treated differently from the way NIU was after it's Orange Bowl appearance? I think there was a serious push by the Huskies to get a B12 invite after that. I don't think the interest was mutual, but would appreciate any info. The main question here is if ISU hits the jackpot in a similar manner - would it matter to their long term conference prospects?

 

[GhostofMBA]

Agree with both of you. I think it's a useful put to say this here. I believe that it's commonly known that an application by ISU for all sports into the MAC would be met receptively. Might have to wait for an opening, but the application would be stamped "approved". Also, I think it's commonly understood that an application for football only would be stamped "rejected". Just some context setting. Would appreciate different perspectives.

Also think it's a fair question to ask this here: Would ISU be treated differently from the way NIU was after it's Orange Bowl appearance? I think there was a serious push by the Huskies to get a B12 invite after that. I don't think the interest was mutual, but would appreciate any info. The main question here is if ISU hits the jackpot in a similar manner - would it matter to their long term conference prospects?

Unfortunately I do not believe ISU has the academic profile nor the professional schools to be treated differently to that of NIU. Add in that ISU is not a land grant nor Illinois flag ship school, then I do not believe any differently. ISU would have to work the Chicago angle harder to be wanted by other FBS conferences besides the MAC. Just going by memory here, but Utah was not treated differently either and it took the state/federal legislature of Utah to push Utah into the PAC-12 after its BCS bowl victory. Boise State worked themselves into the MWC, but that will be as far as they go unless their status quo changes (academic schools, profile, name change, governmental push like Utah). Utah leaving opened up a spot for BSU. Just the names of NORTHERN ILLINOIS and BOISE STATE are just non-starters.

On a naming note, I do believe Southern Illinois may have had things differently if their name is Illinois State University, Illinois Tech, or Illinois A&M University, thus dropping the directional moniker.

On a football rivalry memory, I do recall "discussing" SIU with a SIU fan/alumnus/professor and he said they refer to us as Central Illinois State University because that is what we are closer to than Illinois State University (FUEL THE FIRE!) This was back when both ISU and SIU were pretty good, 2006/2007 timeframe.

 

[gobirds85]

Since my time of being affiliated with the ISU brand, I am not aware of something that was not done on the cheap, well, except it is debatable on Muller's contract if it is/was an overspend. If I recall correctly or last I knew, 75% of ISU's athletic budget is derived from student fees.

If I recall someone stating on here before, sometime in the past, ISU had an offer to join the MAC but declined.

Article from 2014. MAC deal at that time was a 10 year deal.

Explaining the MAC's New ESPN Deal

The new MAC TV deal with ESPN is a big deal, so let's take a few moments to break the questions down one at a time.

www.hustlebelt.com

Since then, Brett McMurphy of ESPN (and several others) have reported that this 13-year deal with ESPN is worth more than $100 million, or roughly about $8 million a season. That factors out to about $670,000 per school, per season, a big improvement over the roughly $120,000 each school received under the previous $1.4 million a year deal, a nearly 500 percent increase in annual payouts.

I believe there may be a renegotiation and to extend, but that should give you an idea anyway. Hopefully this helps!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in the mid '80s there was discussion on campus of even dropping fball all together. Attendance was horrible as was the team. I was told the program was operating at break even so there was really no reason to drop it and some admin. liked the tie -in with Homecoming. The move to the MAC has been knocked around but ISU has always been fairly conservative with these measures. Other than Dan's bball contract, keeping a tight grip of the purse strings have helped ISU. I do believe we are looking at a whole new landscape for college sports so I'm hopeful we make some right decisions.

 

[GhostofMBA]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in the mid '80s there was discussion on campus of even dropping fball all together. Attendance was horrible as was the team. I was told the program was operating at break even so there was really no reason to drop it and some admin. liked the tie -in with Homecoming. The move to the MAC has been knocked around but ISU has always been fairly conservative with these measures. Other than Dan's bball contract, keeping a tight grip of the purse strings have helped ISU. I do believe we are looking at a whole new landscape for college sports so I'm hopeful we make some right decisions.

Total Red, Birdswin, may be a few others may know about the 80s. My affiliation and knowledge started in 2005.

 

[ISUBU]

The Birds were briefly I-A in the late 1970s/early 1980s. I recall a Sports Illustrated? list of the worst major college football teams and we were on it. The first Division I-AA playoffs were in 1978, and we weren't in that division (not that our record would have been worthy of invitation). I'm not sure what the thinking was, but in a few years we chose I-AA or perhaps our budget or conference made that choice for us. The MVC quit sponsoring football, the teams either went independent I-A (Tulsa, Wichita State) or went to a newer women's athletic conference that agreed to sponsor football for men - the Gateway.

At that time, programs were limited by the NCAA as to the number of times they could be on network TV. Some of the heavyweight programs threatened to leave the NCAA and form their own separate division if the rule weren't changed. They felt they could gain more revenue on their own, and the NCAA backed down. I believe this led to ISU's lone football game on national broadcast TV - we were an available game to the network. Anyway, the heavyweights got their way. The conferences negotiate favorable slots, Notre Dame gets NBC, etc. The rich indeed get even richer. Up to this point attendance was the most important thing for revenue. Now for the big boys, TV is a large and growing share. Their history for the past 4 or 5 decades has been to collude with each other to manage a small membership in the big money pool - so they don't share as much as they used to. I don't know why anyone thinks that is going to change unless there is a court ruling that forces it.

NIU had no shot of getting into the Big 12. Only a team that can increase the pot of money has any hope of being included. In the Big10, that means you have to bring enough revenue that surpasses the currently shared amount - 50 million annually, I think. It was the TV markets of NYC and Philly and D.C. that justified Rutgers and Maryland to the existing conference members.

Now the MAC and the other group of 5 conferences? Yes they are FBS conferences, but they are closer to the top of FCS than they are to the top of their own division.

 

[ISUBU]

On a naming note, I do believe Southern Illinois may have had things differently if their name is Illinois State University, Illinois Tech, or Illinois A&M University, thus dropping the directional moniker.

On a football rivalry memory, I do recall "discussing" SIU with a SIU fan/alumnus/professor and he said they refer to us as Central Illinois State University because that is what we are closer to than Illinois State University (FUEL THE FIRE!) This was back when both ISU and SIU were pretty good, 2006/2007 timeframe.

SIU can't really drop the directional moniker because it is their reason for being. They exist as they are because they serve a region of the state that was culturally distinctive from the rest of Illinois. They have always been treated more favorably than the other state-supported universities because of their unique mission. The medical school, the law school, on and on consistently talk about their service to the region. They embrace this.

 

[gobirds85]

SIU can't really drop the directional moniker because it is their reason for being. They exist as they are because they serve a region of the state that was culturally distinctive from the rest of Illinois. They have always been treated more favorably than the other state-supported universities because of their unique mission. The medical school, the law school, on and on consistently talk about their service to the region. They embrace this.

SIU has done a great job in Springfield. We haven't. They have played politics effectually and that has allowed them to get the state funding they need. ISU, on the other hand, has not been anywhere as successful. A good friend of mine and Springfield insider applied for the job of ISU lobbyist years ago as he saw how badly we were being received there. As a lobbyist for another concern, he would talk to legislators about pressing concerns and then as a side note, would ask them about ISU and it's efforts in Springfield. He told me that not a one of the state legislators could even name the ISU lobbyist. Needless to say, my buddy did not get the ISU job and we still get the short end of the stick. SIU has lost some of it's political clout in the last few years and with the rapidly changing landscape of higher education we might get a little more respect in Springfield but I won't hold my breath.

 

[StLRedbird]

Unfortunately I do not believe ISU has the academic profile nor the professional schools to be treated differently to that of NIU. Add in that ISU is not a land grant nor Illinois flag ship school, then I do not believe any differently. ISU would have to work the Chicago angle harder to be wanted by other FBS conferences besides the MAC. Just going by memory here, but Utah was not treated differently either and it took the state/federal legislature of Utah to push Utah into the PAC-12 after its BCS bowl victory. Boise State worked themselves into the MWC, but that will be as far as they go unless their status quo changes (academic schools, profile, name change, governmental push like Utah). Utah leaving opened up a spot for BSU. Just the names of NORTHERN ILLINOIS and BOISE STATE are just non-starters.

On a naming note, I do believe Southern Illinois may have had things differently if their name is Illinois State University, Illinois Tech, or Illinois A&M University, thus dropping the directional moniker.

On a football rivalry memory, I do recall "discussing" SIU with a SIU fan/alumnus/professor and he said they refer to us as Central Illinois State University because that is what we are closer to than Illinois State University (FUEL THE FIRE!) This was back when both ISU and SIU were pretty good, 2006/2007 timeframe.

Not sure land grant status is critical. Purdue is, Indiana is not. Iowa St is, Iowa is not. Kinda arbitrary. I know the B10 puts stock into AAU membership and was not pleased when Nebraska was dropped from that pretty exclusive club. Agreed completely about lack of professional schools. Hopefully, COVID-19 has not materially affected ISUs efforts at adding an Engineering school. But since you brought it up, why in the world does ISU NOT have a med school at Brokaw? Win-win for the school and BloNo.

 

[StLRedbird]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in the mid '80s there was discussion on campus of even dropping fball all together. Attendance was horrible as was the team. I was told the program was operating at break even so there was really no reason to drop it and some admin. liked the tie -in with Homecoming. The move to the MAC has been knocked around but ISU has always been fairly conservative with these measures. Other than Dan's bball contract, keeping a tight grip of the purse strings have helped ISU. I do believe we are looking at a whole new landscape for college sports so I'm hopeful we make some right decisions.

I supported dropping football in the 80s and 90s. Just didn't see how it could be successful here. Bowman and Zenger enlightened me. Nowadays, I just support ISU football at whatever level we're playing. It's a very good and entertaining product. Puts players in the NFL.

 

[ISUBird]

Not sure land grant status is critical. Purdue is, Indiana is not. Iowa St is, Iowa is not. Kinda arbitrary. I know the B10 puts stock into AAU membership and was not pleased when Nebraska was dropped from that pretty exclusive club. Agreed completely about lack of professional schools. Hopefully, COVID-19 has not materially affected ISUs efforts at adding an Engineering school. But since you brought it up, why in the world does ISU NOT have a med school at Brokaw? Win-win for the school and BloNo.

I just want them to go through adding an engineering school and then a law school. That would be much cheaper.

 

[Sycamorefan96]

ISU
EIU
WIU
SIU
Indy St.
UNI
MSU
SEMO
Would be a pretty cool football conference if you ask me. No one has asked so there's that.

I wish the MVFC schools would all get together and form an all-sports conference. However I would probably dump YSU and WIU, and try to get Murray State for a 10 team conference. NDSU, SDSU, and MUSU are all better opponents in basketball than Evansville, Valpo, and Drake. Why continue with the the public / private / fb / non-fb split nonsense for a one bid league? We all need a league with a unified mission.

 

[GhostofMBA]

But since you brought it up, why in the world does ISU NOT have a med school at Brokaw? Win-win for the school and BloNo.

It may have had something to do with UofI having a school of medicine in Peoria?