Fire Muller...now!

[RedbirdSoxFan]

Why do you think Fleming is a much better player than Lee was as a freshmen? Stats don’t scream out in Fleming’s favor over Lee. Lee did benefit from playing with more talent his freshmen year.

I watched PLee play his whole Freshman season. At no point his Freshman season did I (nor anyone else) think we had a concern that some P5 school was going to steal him away from Illinois State. He just did not have that kind of raw talent as a Freshman.
Howard Fleming Jr however does. Many on here believe he does. I can’t imagine anyone on this board that saw Paris Lee play as a Freshman think he was as good as what they see in Howard Fleming Jr as a Freshman.

 

[jamminjamarsmiley]

What has led us to anoint Fleming as an all mvc player? I’m looking at stats, more turnovers than assists. Not a good look for a PG. I’m comparing the freshman year of P Lee to Fleming and don’t see a whole lot suggesting Fleming is having a better year than Lee as a freshman. Fleming had started a handful of games on the 10th place team. Lee started 33 games on a middle of the pack MVC team back when the mvc was a better conference. I’d like to see your evidence of Fleming being so much better than Lee as a frosh

 

[BirdGrad2011]

Fleming does a lot that doesn’t show up in the box score too. His turnovers are a little high, but I think that stems from finding his game at this speed. He rebounds at a high clip especially for a guard. He has great court vision. Shown he can hit shots. Think it’s all a confidence thing. Reminds me of Elijah Clarance to a degree. Just hope when Fleming explodes it’s in a Redbird uniform rather than overseas.

 

[GhostofMBA]

This thread has been comedy gold. Once again, BF has no idea what is going on. People asking donors to step up and bail out ISU, laughable. One poster said it best, where the donors consulted before the big raise on the contract? ISU's main sources of revenue are student fees and Learfield. MBB has been set back a very long time. Unless there starts to be some form of under the table payments for talent to the team raised up for a NCAA bid, then there will be a percentage of you, fellow ISU alumnus and fans, who will never see ISU again in the NCAA.

Many Dan Defenders have now hopped off the bandwagon and calling for his removal. There were those of us who could think logically, not emotionally, and said from the very beginning, with examples and evidence, how this would likely turn out. And here we are. Sadly the old board is gone.

 

[Birdfriend72]

You are wrong. Lofton went to Minnesota, but never played there, then Texas Southern and eventually ended up at New Mexico State

Good call!

 

[ISU86]

You forgot the caveat. And times are different now. First three seasons don't count. Start counting from there. If they fail from there they're gone. Ein 70% or we move on. That should be the mindset or else status quo because 20-10 gets you nowhere. Don't settle

So, applying the caveat:

Robinson, .654 in season four ... GONE
Smithson, ventured on prior to season four
Donewald, .586 in season four ... GONE
Bender, .655 in season four ... GONE
Stallings, .800 in season four ... STICKS (until season six, .516 ... GONE)
Richardson, .276 in season four ... GONE
Moser, .484 in season four ... GONE
Jankovich, .387 in season four ... GONE
Muller, .563 in season four ... GONE

 

[ISU86]

Some coaches learn, mature, and become better at their craft like Moser. Others don't...like muller. I'll take Moser over Muller any day of the week.

doubt that was the case in 2007

 

[ricohill]

Reeves and Horne are both way better player’s as Freshman & Sophomore’s than Paris Lee was. If I could go back to your post (and a few of your fellow Redbird and Dan bashers on here) I would probably find you were the same guys saying how bad Paris Lee was, and that we needed to get a point guard to replace him. Furthermore, Howard Fleming Jr is a much better player as a Freshman than Paris Lee was (and PLee ended up as one of the top 10 PG to wear a Redbird uniform). So don’t give me that crap that this team doesn’t have talent, they are just young right now, and they don’t have a Jackie to throw the ball down low to (Mahorcic is getting better, and although he is no Jackie, I think he will be a very good center next season), and they have zero Senior leadership. Any of these three guards are good enough to transfer to a power 5 conference. And as far as that team that Jank left Dan that transferred, I would take any one of these three over any of those that transferred (and you can also through Emon Washington in there).
Dan did not make it to the NCAA Tournament his first season because he was left with no PG, and anyone that knows anything about basketball knows you can’t win without a good PG.
DJ Horne, Antonio Reeves, Howard Fleming Jr, and Emon Washington all have more talent than any player not named Jackie Carmichael or Tyler Brown that Jank left Dan. But you just throw all the crap out there you want, your fellow Dan haters will believe it, and support it.

It’s year 9 for Dan why are we “young” every year.

Also, let’s not kid ourselves about the talent. If these players were that good their only other offers wouldn’t have been the worst teams in Division 1.

Finally, none of these guards are remotely in the league of Paris Lee. Paris could get to the rim, he could handle the ball, and could defend. Our current guards are soft and can’t get to the basket, turn the ball over a ton, only shoot 3s, and can’t keep anyone in front of them on defense.

If the only thing you judge is on points, sure they average more, but he’s not even close as complete of a player.

 

[RedbirdSoxFan]

It’s year 9 for Dan why are we “young” every year.

Also, let’s not kid ourselves about the talent. If these players were that good their only other offers wouldn’t have been the worst teams in Division 1.

Finally, none of these guards are remotely in the league of Paris Lee. Paris could get to the rim, he could handle the ball, and could defend. Our current guards are soft and can’t get to the basket, turn the ball over a ton, only shoot 3s, and can’t keep anyone in front of them on defense.

If the only thing you judge is on points, sure they average more, but he’s not even close as complete of a player.

Your opinion doesn’t make you right.
As far as being a young team, I’m guessing that Dan didn’t know that Taylor Bruninga and Matt Chastain were going to have to opt out due to medical issues. And I’m pretty sure he wasn’t aware that a pandemic was going to lead to Keith Fisher opting out. So there is your veteran leadership gone. But go ahead and blame that on Dan.

 

[ricohill]

Your opinion doesn’t make you right.
As far as being a young team, I’m guessing that Dan didn’t know that Taylor Bruninga and Matt Chastain were going to have to opt out due to medical issues. And I’m pretty sure he wasn’t aware that a pandemic was going to lead to Keith Fisher opting out. So there is your veteran leadership gone. But go ahead and blame that on Dan.

Considering two of those guys averaged 5 ppg combined, I’m guessing they aren’t the difference makers everyone dreams they would be.

Also, the standings don’t lie. Thursday 3 years in a row and this is the worst team of them all.

 

[RedbirdSoxFan]

Considering two of those guys averaged 5 ppg combined, I’m guessing they aren’t the difference makers everyone dreams they would be.

Also, the standings don’t lie. Thursday 3 years in a row and this is the worst team of them all.

I’m guessing the injuries played a big part in the PPG. But you don’t care. As long as you and Calibird can get your rocks of bashing anything to do with Redbird basketball.

 

[cubird]

Bottom line...you don’t compete in the Valley with a young team. Covid prevented the newcomers from arriving on campus until late summer. Dusan is just getting into shape. Our 2 freshman bigs should have been redshirted. Kentucky Blue Chippers suck this year, because they are young. This year the Valley should get 2 bids this year unless Drake/ Loyola is a sweep.

 

[ricohill]

I’m guessing the injuries played a big part in the PPG. But you don’t care. As long as you and Calibird can get your rocks of bashing anything to do with Redbird basketball.

I’d like to be proud of ISU basketball. If you think this program is in great shape. Good for you.

 

[jamminjamarsmiley]

Stating that guys from Illini Bluffs and Leroy not being around is what’s keeping Dan from achieving greatness is sort of sad

 

[jamminjamarsmiley]

Drake wasn’t counting on their best player transferring to Minnesota yet they still sit atop the mvc

 

[RedbirdSoxFan]

I’d like to be proud of ISU basketball. If you think this program is in great shape. Good for you.

I never said that I thought this basketball program was in good shape. Although, I think that if Horne, Reeves, Fleming, Washington, Boyd, Strong, Sissoko, N’Diaye and Mahorcic stick around, and Dan can somehow get a quality JUCO Power Forward, I like our chances next season. If a number of them transfer than they should go ahead and replace Dan. If they all stick around than I am ok with giving Dan one more year.
Absolutely nothing I (or anyone else) can post on this board will change what the new administration decides to do. The new AD and President will make the decision as to Dan’s coaching status at Illinois State University. So I choose to try and enjoy this team for what it is, hold hope that they will continue to improve, and hope for a better 2021-22 season (whoever the coach is). But I refuse to come on here and rant and rave about how we need to fire our coach, or degrade the players. It is getting really old. Many good posters from the past have left the board because of it.
Now excuse me while I take a big gulp of my Redbird coolaid before I make my crazy prediction. Ok! The Redbirds will not be playing on Thursday in St Louis!!!

 

[Birdfriend72]

It’s year 9 for Dan why are we “young” every year.

Also, let’s not kid ourselves about the talent. If these players were that good their only other offers wouldn’t have been the worst teams in Division 1.

Finally, none of these guards are remotely in the league of Paris Lee. Paris could get to the rim, he could handle the ball, and could defend. Our current guards are soft and can’t get to the basket, turn the ball over a ton, only shoot 3s, and can’t keep anyone in front of them on defense.

If the only thing you judge is on points, sure they average more, but he’s not even close as complete of a player.

Go look at the recruiting section. Birdfriend keeps posting our targets...the guys being recruited by North Baltic St.

 

[Birdfriend72]

I never said that I thought this basketball program was in good shape. Although, I think that if Horne, Reeves, Fleming, Washington, Boyd, Strong, Sissoko, N’Diaye and Mahorcic stick around, and Dan can somehow get a quality JUCO Power Forward, I like our chances next season. If a number of them transfer than they should go ahead and replace Dan. If they all stick around than I am ok with giving Dan one more year.
Absolutely nothing I (or anyone else) can post on this board will change what the new administration decides to do. The new AD and President will make the decision as to Dan’s coaching status at Illinois State University. So I choose to try and enjoy this team for what it is, hold hope that they will continue to improve, and hope for a better 2021-22 season (whoever the coach is). But I refuse to come on here and rant and rave about how we need to fire our coach, or degrade the players. It is getting really old. Many good posters from the past have left the board because of it.
Now excuse me while I take a big gulp of my Redbird coolaid before I make my crazy prediction. Ok! The Redbirds will not be playing on Thursday in St Louis!!!

If it weren't for the money owed to Muller...we shouldn't be wanting to give Muller another year (every year). Its ok to fire someone for poor performance. Believe it or not...$600,000 a year isn't chump change.

 

[gobirds85]

doubt that was the case in 2007

Was Dan a HC in 2007? If not, would it have been difficult to make this comparison? Fast forward to now when both are head coaches. Who would you rather have as your hc? I know, it’s rhetorical.

 

[Redbird222]

I watched PLee play his whole Freshman season. At no point his Freshman season did I (nor anyone else) think we had a concern that some P5 school was going to steal him away from Illinois State. He just did not have that kind of raw talent as a Freshman.
Howard Fleming Jr however does. Many on here believe he does. I can’t imagine anyone on this board that saw Paris Lee play as a Freshman think he was as good as what they see in Howard Fleming Jr as a Freshman.

I think Howard is great but I would give the edge to Paris for their Freshman years.

I think Paris was a very good on-the-ball defender even in his first year. He was also was great at creating steals from day one. Similar to Fleming, he showed the flashes of being a great ball distributor. PLEE along with DK had the ball in their hands during Paris's Freshman year. I don't think Howard has been asked to carry that load as consistently as Paris was in year one.

Each year got better for Paris but what I what I did not anticipate was how much he would improve as a shooter - especially his Senior year. It seems like that part of his game has continued to improve as he has played over seas. When I look at highlights, the range on his shots is super impressive.

I think Fleming is a great rebounder for a guard and he gets the nod hear. His length can also pose issues. He also has shown the ability to create steals albeit it in a different manner than Paris. I still give Paris the edge here but he was one of the best all times at creating steals. This is no knock on Fleming. He is not as quick as Paris and not as a good of an on the ball defender (at least in Freshman years). Similar to Paris he definitely looks to get other involved. He does need to improve on TO. Paris always averaged a couple TO per game but the ball was in his hands for the vast majority of the game. Especially after Daishon graduated. I think Fleming has the potential to be one of the best distributors. Probably not as good as Jamar Smiley but like Nic Moore.

Howard has recently shown flashes of a jump shot. He doesn't have the quickest release and it's a little flat at times but if he improves like Lee he could be a big time contributor. He has the size to finish at the rim, sees the court well, and a consistent jump shot would make him a very potent offensive player.

I don't know if its fair to compare him to PLee given Paris was eventually player of the year. All I know is I am super excited he is part of the team and hope he is here for the remainder of his college career.